Business focused episode. 2 topics, 1: How to approach budtender training to make more money and consumer-centric insights 2: What’s going on in Massachusetts? A State with high sales and very few businesses. Our guest is Winston Boney, Co-Founder of The Highly Educated, who previously filled multiple cannabis roles in several States.
Link to Email List sign up “Join our Community” and get insights we don’t share anywhere else.
There is a lot of competition in the matured cannabis markets, while most new markets will eventually reach saturation and increased competition. How can a dispensary stand out in such a crowded market? Our guest is Randa Shahin Larkin, Co-Founder of Home Grown Apothecary. We discuss strategies for differentiating dispensaries and brands.
Link to Email List sign up “Join our Community” and get insights we don’t share anywhere else.
Is all “Full Spectrum” the same? There are many types of concentrates and extracts, but what makes them different? In this episode we simplify all the concentrates into 4 simple categories to better understand their different attributes and determine what cannabis product is best for you or your customers. Our guest is Educator Emma Chasen and this is Part 2 from Pe124.
Link to Email List sign up “Join our Community” and get insights we don’t share anywhere else.
Emma Chasen, Guest: So yes, full spectrum has become quite a marketing term. So that's also important to be mindful of, as you mentioned, we met it's just on a lot of labels now and so it's important to investigate. I have a relationship with budtender who works in Portland where I mentor her and she sent me a picture of a cartridge package that said "full spectrum distillate" and she was like yeah, I pushed the vendor on like, "Oh, well is this actually a distillate?" And they were like yeah, it's a just a cannabinoid distillate but it retains all of the the terpenes and, and all the good stuff. And so it's full spectrum. And she was reaching out to me being like, what? And I was like, well, yeah full spectrum distillate is almost oxymoronic, where you can't have a distillate and have it be full spectrum. I mean full spectrum in its definition, means that you are preserving the unique fingerprint of the plant material in terms of the constituents of the actual cannabis matrix. And so there are some people in the cannabis industry who operate under the school of thought that full spectrum in order to like really be full spectrum, you have to include the phytonutrients, the pigments, the polyphenols. And if that's the case, well then really only full extracts cannabis oil or FECO, that is that dark, dark color that's used organic alcohol that has been formulated with very low temperature over a long period of time. That would really be the only, the only product category in essence, that would be full spectrum maybe also tinctures because you're not applying any heat to that. It but again, it would have to be a really crude extraction of alcohol for a long period of time. So that's one school of thought. However, as I mentioned, you can't safely heat and inhale those products, that would not be good for you. You do not want to heat and inhale plant waxes, lipids, carbohydrates, pigments, etc. And so there's also another school of thought that says okay, well there's a full spectrum that's designed for ingestion that can include a much larger range of polyphenols and carbohydrates and phytonutrients. But then there's also a full spectrum that's designed for heating and inhaling, whether it be smoking or really vaporizing and that is where you have something like a subcritical co2 extraction that takes a longer time, that runs at a lower temperature, where you are separating out your terpenes from that extraction, then running the rest of the, the extract through a supercritical extraction, where you are removing more of those plant waxes, lipids, then reintegrating the terpenes with the cannabinoid-rich raw co2 and then winterizing it so that you are removing the plant waxes and not, not steam distilling it any further. And so what you are trying to retain then is the largest possible concentration, the widest range of cannabinoids and terpenes mostly that are still safe to heat and inhale. So that would be something like a full spectrum vape pen or concentrate for example.
Wayne: Would that capture like the flavonoids and esters as well?
Emma: Probably not, because esters are incredibly volatile, and also they have - esters have slight solubility in water and flavonoids are also water soluble, and so you probably will not be able to capture those in the full spectrum extraction methodology that would be required of a smokeable or or something that's being inhaled. But you would absolutely be able to capture flavonoids and maybe even some esters in a in something like a FECO or or a tincture preparation.
Wayne: So is there any way for a consumer or budtenders as they're looking at their products, to really tell on the label kind of this full spectrum - the quality of a full spectrum discussion? Is that difficult to do right now?
Emma: It is difficult to do. For one if you see something that's, that says full spectrum distillate, it's not full spectrum. Anything that is cannabis distillate or cannabis isolate - not full spectrum. However, there there are good companies who're not trying to market manipulatively. And if you ask them just like some questions, you'll be able to figure that out. And so if they do advertise as full spectrum, when say like, Oh, well, what solvent do you use? If they're running co2, then you can ask them, "Oh, do you employ some critical processing to to capture as many terpenes as possible?" They say yes or no to that question, that will also clue you in to, to their - to what they're producing. Now on the the ingestible end that - easy if you ask about the solvent, especially with FECO, it should be organic alcohol, organic sugar cane alcohol is the creme de la creme of solvents in that realm. And also just ask them if they're doing a low temp, long time extraction, and if you have those three things, then that is kind of like the magic combination for a full spectrum product.
Wayne: Got it. And on the full spectrum distillate, I've also seen strain specific distillate - Is there something they're doing where it's not really just distillate, just the THC or CBD, they gotta probably be doing something else to at least make that claim on the label. Is there something else going on with the distillate that that would kind of make them put that on the label the full spectrum piece or strain specific?
Emma: You can do a strain specific distillate, but you won't really be retaining anything that makes that strain unique, but you could still use it as marketing language. Let's say if you're running like a Jack Herer distillate and you're only using Jack Herer plant material, well then you have arrived at a strain specific distillate, and that helps you to market it better. And I mean, a company could be going even further to that include or add in botanically derived terpenes, such as terpinolene that's, that's commonly found in Jack Herer. However, that we - we know I'm not such a fan of adding in any botanically derived terpenes, especially if you're looking to heat and inhale because we don't quite know the effects on the lungs of that just yet. But as far as like a distillate being full spectrum, just not possible, not possible. I mean, you're running, typically a co2, you've already ran it through winterization. You already rotovaped it, so burned off the rest of the alcohol and then you're running it through something called fractionated distillation, which is actually removing some of the compounds from the other ones to arrive at a more cannabinoid rich product, and that's fine, a lot of people like to consume distillate. However, it's not full spectrum by any, by any means of the word at all. Because you are like, by definition fractionating off a subset of compounds from other compounds.
Wayne: Yeah. Around the vaping crisis I just saw this morning, the flavored ban, at least in Oregon here, they lifted it to allow the botanical terpenes now, so really interesting dynamic and well, we don't have to dive too deep into the vaping crisis. We did a two part series on that previously and some of the culprits that we really are concerned about vitamin E acetate, glycol, MCT oils, but it was so crazy to see them go after flavored, which didn't seem like it should have been the number one priority, botanical terpenes. And then, when it came to nicotine vaping, they lifted the ban in like two or three days, right away but left cannabis, and then now just today they also removed it for cannabis. Do you know anything behind the scenes of why they decided now to lift that ban or what might be going on there?
Emma: I think it's probably due to the very recent CDC report that came out, that did find vitamin E oil in most of the carts that were causing issue and so that's what I suspect is that, the ban - It was also blocked I believe by a group maybe an extraneous lobbying group - I saw the headline but didn't read the article. And, and so I think it was probably most likely motivated by the CDC report, the most recent one that came out and said, "Okay, actually we do think it is this vitamin E oil that is causing most of the problems as well as these all these other factors may be at play faulty hardware, synthetic cannabinoids, botanical terpenes, etc." But really the main cause for concern here seems to be oil.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah. And they haven't been able to specifically - or I don't know if they're doing studies on it right now around botanical terpenes. But without that hard evidence yet, they kind of reversed course. What about -so synthetic cannabinoids, are synthetic cannabinoids only made by growing them out of yeast or are there also different methods. Is there any potential to those? Or do you just think that's too much of a risk at this time? Or do you think that could end up being a safe alternative that's maybe lower cost or something like that?
Emma: My thoughts on synthetic cannabinoids are just - why? At this point, there is no reason to choose a synthetic cannabinoid at all over plant derived cannabinoid formulation. It's just much higher risk associated with it, we see a lot more side effects that are like not only uncomfortable but dangerous, like unhealthy causing people a multitude of issues. I unknowing - No, not unknowingly, I knowingly smoked a synthetic cannabinoid not knowing what it was necessarily, when I was in Israel, and it turned out to be the closest in molecular structure to bath salts. That's not, that's not good for you. It definitely did not perfect me any therapeutic value, there was no medicinal reason for me to consume that except to try to have a good time when I was in Israel. This was now almost 10 years ago. But like, I just don't I just don't see any argument at this point as to why people would choose synthetic cannabinoids over plant derived, you can make them in a lab, so they can be synthesized in a lab. I don't think that you only need to grow them from yeast. And so maybe it would allow for just like greater viability, greater access cheaper. However, if it's that much more risky to consume it, not worth it.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah. And as things scale, I mean, we're really getting the cost of production and growing down, so access is becoming more available. And then, you know, heaven forbid, one day they actually allow medical insurance to cover cannabis for medical patients. I mean, you can think of any other pharmaceutical if you actually pay for what that costs, nobody would be able to afford any of their medications. Cannabis is the only one people are actually paying 100% of the cost of it. So yeah, that's it - is that what K2, and like Spice, and some of those legal things - are those synthetic cannabinoids?
Emma: Yes, Spice definitely. Yeah. And it's called many different things. But really, it's like, just, I mean, it's just chemicals.
Wayne: It's a weird whack a mole game where, I've I've saw documentaries on it where they're, you know, they find a new one they make it illegal. So they changed this little molecule group now we have a new synthetic cannabinoid that's legal because the government doesn't know about it yet. And they roll that out and it's this is constantly like, looping battle. It's really strange. But um, and I see some companies really a lot of money - hundred million dollars up to $300 million raising, that are bio ag tech companies completely focused on synthetic cannabinoids. And so I mean, some people are putting real money behind it and just curious of where that will be or ends up being a dead end road or - Yes, yeah, interesting and scary at the same time.
Emma: Yes, definitely scary and much more in line with the, with the like pharmaceutical model - where I'm sure people are throwing big money at synthetic cannabinoids because it's easy to replicate and produce in high volume and just get out to as many people as possible. But again, it's not healthful. It's not, it doesn't - absolutely does not have the same therapeutic potential as cannabis. And even if it did, it - there would be so many more risks associated with its use.
Wayne: Yeah, when it comes down to it, it's still an isolate. And we just talked about isolates and their efficacy. And yeah, yeah, what - Here's another one from a user - or I keep saying user, listener question. Total cannabinoid percentage. So I see this on some it's definitely on lab results and people are putting it on labels now - is total cannabinoid percentage important at the consumer level, and if so, how does a budtender explain total cannabinoid, or is that something people should even be looking at?
Emma: So total cannabinoid percentage, it is the result on your certificate of analysis that is the total percentage of the cannabinoids that lab has tested for in that product or in that cannabis variety. And so it will include THC, THCV, CBD, CBDV, CBG, CBC - it will include all the cannabinoids at the lab has tested for. Total cannabinoid percentage, I've seen it used in dispensaries instead of THC percentage to either make consumers more enticed by a higher percentage, so they see something that's like oh my god 36% and are just, immediately want to purchase it because they're thinking in line with THC. And I think that that has two sides to it. One, it can be a little manipulative in getting consumers to think that they're looking at, at something that they're not actually looking at. Or it can help to move consumers away from this idea that THC is the only thing to look at. And I think that that is, there's good to that. And that's how I would explain it to a consumer if they asked. I would be - I would make sure to be very upfront in both signage as well as in verbal communication that this is a total cannabinoid percentage, it represents all of the cannabinoids at play here. It is not just THC, it's not just CBD, it's all of the minor ones that the lab is tested for as well. And that this can, this along with other data and this is this is where it comes in again to the more like full picture. This along with terpene data could be used to help identify maybe the intensity of the experience. But then again, we would need to look at the different types of cannabinoids. I mean if you are putting your total cannabinoid percentage there, and it's CBD dominant? Well, then you need to explain that to a consumer that, Oh, actually, there may not be as much psychotropic activity here, even though you're reading a 30% number, there may be 20% of that may be CBD. And so it wouldn't be that kind of like level of psychotropic activity that the consumer would expect by looking at that number. I've also heard of stories of consumers getting really upset when they read that number, and they think they're getting something and they're not. And so it, it has two sides to it. I think that there's pros and cons to putting that number out. One, it is helpful to move people away from the idea that THC is the only thing to look at and instead, initiates hopefully a conversation around the many different cannabinoids at play and what they can do for you, both isolated and when working together. But I mean that conversation is necessary. If you just put put out that number and you don't explain what that number means to a consumer - you don't really like take out the lab result and look at the different cannabinoids at play there - then you could be creating some very disgruntled customers.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, I mean, especially if that's the only number - I mean, if you're going to use that number, sounds like you've got to put the THC CBD everything right below it and those should all add up to your total cannabinoid number. But to put that singular number on there, yeah, we could definitely misleading. Yep, yeah. How do either you know budtenders, if they've got flower coming in. They want to understand their product selection, or consumer if they're looking to buy a certain type of flower they care about the brand, how it's grown, you know organic is - I don't wanna say a blanket term, but it can be used loosely. How do you understand the different levels of organic cultivation practices and what they might mean and are they all good are some better than others? You know, just some questions budtenders could use to kind of get a better understanding of that term and how people use it.
Emma: Sure. So we have an even further layer of complication beyond the many different organic strategies that growers can employ and what that means for the crop. We can't actually certify cannabis as USDA Organic, because that's a federal certification, and so that creates a problem in essence where we can't even use the word organic to describe these these organic practices, which is wild. And so instead what we have is third party certifiers who come in such as Clean Green Certified, Certified Kind, DM Pure Certified, that certifies cannabis grows on different levels of organic practices. So, in my investigation of these certifiers, Clean Green Certified seems to be like the bare minimum organics. So that is looking at the USDA certified organic program and saying, "Okay, this cannabis grow is fairly in line with that program. They're only using pesticides that have been deemed acceptable by the USDA." So there are pesticides that you can use and still be USDA certified organic. So that's important that it's - it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not using pesticides. And there are also different, just like methods of grow in terms of, "okay, you're using soil, what kind of interventions?". You can still spray things on your plant that would prevent pests again, while being organics that something such as neem oil or even growers use sulfur to get rid of pests and other pathogens and problems. Also, how are you - how are you getting your water? How are you refiltering your water, What does your water tests look like? Are you using compost teas, what kind of nutrient amendments are you using? Are you using bottled nutrients - so again, you can be organic and still use synthetic bottled nutrients that have been USDA Organic certified, this again would be kind of like the lowest of the low on the organic totem pole in my opinion. If you are using bottled nutrients, you're still spraying whether it be pesticides or neem oil or or whatever you're using, and and you are going with the more synthetic route. Then there is the minimalist organic style where you're not really spraying anything on, on your plants, you are using compost teas, so you're making your own compost and using that but not doing any any real more amendments beyond that. Maybe you're doing some Integrated Pest Management, where you are employing some beneficial bugs that help to eat the other nastier bugs that will cause you problems. That, that is more in line with again, minimalist organic where you are still stressing out your plant enough to produce a lot of cannabinoids and terpenes but you're not - you're not giving it any like nasty stuff or any stuff that could cause problems. Then there is what we call organic living soil and that is like in DM Pure sort of certification Dragonfly Earth Medicine certification. They are looking for more of like a holistic mindset. So how do you impact your ecosystem? What's your impact on your community? How do you give back to your community? Are you making not only your own compost teas but also your own amendments like fruit and flower ferments? Are you harvesting your own horsetail? Are you doing this sustainably? Are you using cover crops? Are you planting other plants around your cannabis plant? Are you growing outside? Are you planting directly into the earth? What does your energy consumption look like? That is kind of like the creme de la creme of or organics, something or a grow such as Green Source Gardens which is outdoor, Southern Oregon. They almost do like forest farming where they are incredible. I mean having the opportunity to tour their farm last September was amazing, with all of the strategies and the the biodynamic methods that they implement in terms of just the amount of diversity in the garden and the way that it is very like, low intervention. But also they are providing such wonderful, wonderful amendments. I mean, they have farm animals, they have farm animals, and they use the waste from the animals to fertilize, they use carbon sequestration, they employ Hugelkultur, they do a little bit of KNF farming. I mean, it's, it's wild. And so those are the kind of different levels of organics and when, when trying to figure it out from the growers who come in. I would simply ask them what their growing practices are, and have them describe it to you and see what they're using. If they are using - ask them if they're, what kind of nutrients they're employing. Ask them what kind of me minutes they're using ask them the medium that they grow in. Are they doing hydroponics? Are they doing cocoa? Are they doing soil? Ask them what they spray on their plants, ask them what their pest management plan looks like. Are they using beneficial bugs? Or are they using some more synthetic interventions? All of those are important questions to ask when trying to assess growing practices.
Wayne: Yeah, a lot of questions there too. Is the organic living soil to go to, you know, as best as possible and those examples, is it that hard to do? We're not very many people do it, or is it just that it's not so plug-and-play, and kind of easier to systematize and script what you might see from like, you know, an investor moving in there, just wants to get this thing up and running as fast as possible. Because I've heard some people say, it's actually not that much more costly. It's just the intent and focus you have to give to it to get your systems right, or is it really difficult to pull that off?
Emma: No, you're exactly right that it's just time commitment. I mean, you have to be at the farm all day, every day, you have to constantly be innovating on around like okay, a problem does arise how are you going to fix it, you can't just spray something on to it. Creating your own amendments, your own ferments harvesting your own horsetail and alfalfa and planting cover crops I mean, it is more than a full time job. And so the sweat equity associated with that is insane. And as the industry evolves, there are now like amazing machines that you can really like you said, systematically program a nutrient regimen for a huge grow and it will just do it for you. And so you don't need anybody to do it. It will just automatically trigger the, like the irrigation systems at a specific time etc. to continue feeding the plants. But you can only really do synthetics with that, you can't implement an organic living soil model with that kind of like, rigorous, like system management. And so it's a lot of time. It's a lot of effort. It's a huge commitment. And you really have to love it. You have to do it because you love it not because you want to make money.
Wayne: Right. And if you get that dialed in, could it potentially even be lower costs than kind of that synthetic, larger scale plug and play model?
Emma: Yes, because with organic living soil like that, what it comes down to is you're building and recycling your own soil. And so typically, for growers who grow in soil who don't do this, they are trucking in loads of soil every season, if they're indoor, to be able to grow and whereas like organic living soil, they don't do that, they build and recycle their soil every year. And so it is a way to like minimize waste. It's really a way to create this closed loop ecosystem. Regenerative is a word that's thrown around a lot, where you are like regenerating resources. You're just, you're not continuing to just consume, consume consume, which will be more cost effectively in the long run.
Wayne: Can you do that organic living soil indoors as well? And not just outdoor?
Emma: Yes, yeah. There are people who do organic living soil indoor, as well as greenhouse.
Wayne: Yeah, just - if a grower's listening, and you're taking those approaches. I mean, there's so many questions to answer. And a lot of times, you know, we're trying to inform budtenders or consumers what questions to ask, but there's so much there. If you're not in it, you don't even really know what to ask. Something we did on our website that I would recommend any grower taking these approaches do is you know, an FAQ video series where you're sitting down asking these questions and answering them for the, for the consumer - can be really powerful to get, because it's hard for a farm to brand. Now you're relying on the budtenders to then translate that over. It can be really difficult to do and you can't fit all that on a label either, but some way to document all those things and help explain that to consumers because it's huge. I mean, there's so much potential there. But it's hard to translate to the end consumer that's going to want to pay a little more premium or really care of, it's just hard to communicate that.
Emma: Yeah, definitely. And it will help you, growers, stand out if you are like, proactively having those conversations with people in the community and really, hopefully, like the whole point and the whole goal is to try to get people to care. That's important, is to raise the level of consciousness around what we consume. Where if you are conscious about purchasing organic food, well then you better be conscious about purchasing cannabis that's grown in an organic modality, you are heating this thing. Pesticides that are fine and safe for digestion are not fine and safe when they are heated and inhaled. Myclobutanil is the kind of superstar that world, of turning into cyanide when you heat and inhale it and so, And it is it is an important important conversation needs to be had. And I do believe that as the industry evolves, that we will have more conscious consumers and people who are like, Oh, I actually need to care about this. This is important.
Wayne: Yeah. I wanted, this next listener question will kind of transition us over into the concentrate side of things. They asked, does live resin always equal full spectrum?
Emma: So short answer is no, but let me explain what live resin is. So live resin is typically a BHO extraction, you're using butane as your solvent, but it is plant material that is either fresh - so it is freshly harvested. And you also are typically using whole plants. So you're using stem, stalks, leaves, flower - and you're not, it's not cured, it's not dried, it's not cured, it is fresh. Or it is fresh and then Flash frozen, so you have something that has been - kind of its freshness has been preserved by being frozen, and then it thaws and it goes into extraction, BHO extraction. The reason why it's not always full spectrum is that you are still using typically a hydrocarbon solvent that is pulling out higher concentration of cannabinoids and yes, you will get more terpenes because your plant material is fresh, it hasn't been dried. But you still are using that hydrocarbon solvent that is very very selective in what it pulls out. And so it's not going to grab as many of those minor terpenes.
Wayne: And then something I've seen more recently, you know live resin initially was really got popular and for that thought reason, that it's always full spectrum and more so than maybe other concentrates or extracts. And then recently I started seeing cured resin is well - what's the difference between Live resin and cured resin?
Emma: Hmm. So that to me suggests that the plant material has been cured, it has undergone the curing process, which is the process of drying it and and really aging it in essence. And I would think that if they're specifying that it's cured resin then you're still using whole plants, you're still using leaves, stalks, stems as well as flower.
Wayne: Okay, so that's accurate, not live. And then I thought resin was pressed - is that rosin? That's pressed? (Yes) They're so close!
Emma: Yeah. I know, rosin is - either you can have it be the dried cured cannabis flower, the buds, or you can have it be like keif, or dry sift. And you just press it, press it with heat and pressure, and you get this like bubbly goop that is rosin that then can be smoked.
Wayne: Yeah. So they're not using any solvents. Can you put rosin into a vape pen or does it not work when you transfer it over there?
Emma: You can put rosin into a vape pen, I have seen some some rosin vape pens out there. It is rather goopy. So you may have a higher risk of cartridge failure, just if it gets clogged. But it definitely can be heated and, and inhaled.
Wayne: Got it. So moving over to concentrates, there's a long list and I think we you know, some listeners have asked about the differences between concentrates or different, you know, quality, are they all full spectrum, which ones are which ones aren't. There's a lot of them. So I'm not sure how we want to dive into it. We could start going through them, or is there a way you categorize groups of concentrates together that kind of helps simplify it a little more?
Emma: Yes. So I recommend for all of the budtenders and people out there who are incredibly confused by the overwhelming world of concentrates, especially because new like concentrates come out every day, it seems like. Where we had like, okay we had wax and shatter in the BHO world and now all the sudden we have like, terp sauce and diamonds, and glitter and - it's wild, but the way that I categorize it to make it simpler is - what solvent are we using? So, you typically have in the, the concentrate world, you have four categories, based again on solvent. And solvent is the liquid or gas that you are using to extract your compounds.
And you need, you need a solvent except in the arena of solventless, which is a category, but you have hydrocarbon solvents, which are butane, propane - BHO or PHO is really what you'll see, and there you are using hydrocarbon solvent such as butane, and you are using that plus heat and pressure to extract compounds. Hydrocarbons almonds are incredibly selective as I've said now I feel like multiple times throughout this episode, and so they are really only pulling out your cannabinoids and terpenes, they are leaving behind all of your plant material. They're leaving behind anything that's water soluble, they are only pulling out cannabinoids and terpenes. And for this reason, the products that fall under the umbrella of BHO and PHO have high cannabinoid concentrations. Yes, they may have some terpenes. But really, it's all about the cannabinoids here and what falls under BHO and PHO is - shatter, wax, crumble, there is even like people call some stuff hash or glue and really what that comes - snap and pull - really what that comes down to, those terms, are just the consistency of the end product. So shatter is more of like a pane of glass in essence where you could shatter it. Whereas snap and pull is something a little bit stickier, almost like gum, chewed gum. Wax is a little bit goopier, crumble is crumblier, and these consistencies are just dependent on your specific extraction methodology, your time, your temperature, etc. So that's the hydrocarbon solvent lane. And live resin, for example, typically falls under hydrocarbon solvents. It is a type of hydrocarbon extraction where just the plant material that you're using is high grade fresh or flash frozen.
Now, second category is CO2 extracts. So CO2 extracts, you are using a co2 gas as your solvent and the co2 gas goes into liquid form and you are applying heat and pressure in order to extract out your cannabinoids and terpenes. CO2 is a little less selective than hydrocarbons. So you will also pull out plant waxes and lipids and some chlorophyll even, but you will retain more terpenes. With co2 extraction, we have subcritical or super critical. Subcritical, you are running at a lower temperature for a longer amount of time, whereas supercritical, you are running at a higher temperature for a shorter amount of time. Also subcritical, lower pressure, supercritical, higher pressure. And so what co2 manufacturers do, if they are trying to formulate with full spectrum, is that they run the plant material through a subcritical extraction first where they're able to capture way more terpenes than they would in the supercritical, they remove those terpenes from the rest of the extract and then they run that remaining extract through a supercritical, remove more of the plant waxes and lipids, and then they re-integrate the terpenes with the supercritical extraction. Then it goes through a winterization process where they wash it in alcohol and the plant waxes and lipids are removed in the alcohol. And then the remaining, the remaining concentrate mixture which will have some residual alcohol has to go through a rotovape process, where the residual alcohol is burned off at a low temperature, it looks like a big glass ball that rotates in a vacuum in a warm water bath and that allows the alcohol to go right out through the vacuum and what you're left with is a co2 extract with a range of cannabinoids and terpenes, and the co2 extract will most likely be in vape pens. You may also see it on its own as like little concentrates or extract things that you're able to dab but most of the time it'll be in vape pens.
Wayne: And that one, is the reason the - when you wash it in alcohol to winterize it to remove the lipids and waxes, why doesn't it also take the cannabinoids and terpenes with it, because alcohol is a non selective solvent that would pull other things?
Emma: Because you are doing it for a relatively shorter amount of time. And the cannabinoids and the terpenes they prefer the co2 much more than they would prefer the alcohol, and so co2 holds them stronger than the alcohol would. (Cool) Yeah, so that's co2 zone. You can also use co2 extract in edibles, so it's its main or a lot of edible makers use co2 extract, especially chocolates or gummies or candies, to be able to just like provide a flavorless, odorless experience in your edible. You can also take the refinement of the co2 extract further, so you can take the then winterized co2 extract, and put it through fractional distillation where you're removing out the terpenes and you are selecting for a small range of cannabinoids in high concentration. So that's what we get distillate for example. And then you could take that distillate even further and isolate out a single cannabinoid and we see this in THC or CBD isolate as well.
Wayne: With the co2 and doing that next, last stage of fractional distillation. It sounds like the co2 after all those steps is a quality oil - do you only do that fractional distillation if you're starting with like low quality strains and input, is that why you would do that? Or is there another reason?
Emma: Yep, that, that is a good reason why - to have like low grade source material, is why you would go to a distillation. Also again, if you are trying to really make it as like, colorless flavorless, odorless as possible with the highest cannabinoid concentrations possible, distillate will produce much higher cannabinoid concentrations than like a raw co2 extract or winterized co2 extract.
Wayne: Got it. Okay, cool.
Emma: Then our third category is alcohol. So with Alcohol that's where you get like FECO, that's where you get RSO style cannabis oil. That's where you get tinctures, alcohol is the least selective solvent. So it's not, it's not really like leaving much behind. You combine your plant material with alcohol and you heat it at a very low temp or not at all. And you just let it sit for a really really long time and that will pull out cannabinoids, terpenes, flavonoids, phytonutrients, polyphenols, etc. And that's where again, you get like, FECO, you get tinctures, you get something that is meant to ingest. You do not want to run an alcohol extraction and then smoke that, you don't want to smoke alcohol, that's just not - not okay. And so that is the the third category of solvent extractions.
Then we have our solventless category, which is our fourth and so, with solventless extractions, you are not necessarily using a solvent to pull out the cannabinoids and terpenes. You have stuff like bubble hash here, dry sift, rosin. So bubble hash or ice hash, you can technically argue it uses ice water is a solvent. However really what it uses is agitation to be able to break off the trichomes. And actually, like capture a concentrated amount of cannabinoids and terpenes - you're not using any heat, you're not using any pressure, what you're doing is you're taking plant material, you're submerging it in ice water and then you are rigorously agitating it and this will allow for the trichomes to actually break off from the plant material because the plant material will favor the, the water as its polar, whereas the trichomes are non polar, and so it will break - the trichomes will break off in the agitation and settle to the bottom of the barrel, where it will create this like really wet sandy mixture that then you lay out, you dry, you sift, and then what you get is bubble hash or ice house. Where it is a high concentration of cannabinoids, terpenes, and you're able to add that to a bowl of flower. If you sift it through different sized micron screens, you will get like what's called full melt quality, where you'll actually be able to dab it as well. You can dab ice hash if it is full melt. You also have dry sift, which I mean if anybody has a four piece grinder at home, you have dry sift. Another popular term for dry sift is keif. And so it is just plant material that has been sifted through over a very, very fine micron screen. And you could pop that onto a bowl of flower for added cannabinoid potency. You then have rosin which is the the last one which we've already mentioned, which is just using heat and pressure, but no solvent, to achieve an extract or concentrate.
Wayne: Got it. Yeah, those four categories really help to simplify it versus I think the list I made of different names was like 20 or maybe even more. I did have a question on kind of the butter and coconut oil side, actually specifically butter. So we use Canna-butter here. And one thing we've been kind of going back and forth on trying to figure out is should we use ghee or regular butter. So ghee is you know, basically almost 100% butter and the regular butter you get is around 15 to 20% water. But after our conversation, if you use regular butter and it's got some water content in it during that infusion process, could that actually help pull out some of these other beneficial compounds that ghee might not pull out because it doesn't have that water content?
Emma: Yes, theoretically for sure. I think on the the kind of con side of that you will get greater likelihood for green pigmentation and also like the green taste, which is like the plant material taste because you are pulling out those phytonutrients. Where with ghee, for people who are wanting to produce a less like cannabis tasting infusion, they've had more success with the ghee than butter for that reason because there isn't that water that's pulling out the phytonutrients.
Wayne: Right, okay, makes sense.
Emma: Yes. But that also brings up a good point, that there is kind of a fifth category to this, where you won't necessarily see sold in stores, but the fat infusions that you can make at home yourself or the fat infusions that are just responsible for many of the edibles on the market. Such as butter, olive oil, canola oil, coconut oil, any - any fat combined with plant material, heated and left to sit for a long period of time, will also create an an infusion that could be consumed - not heated and inhaled, but...
Wayne: Right - don't smoke butter, do not smoke butter. Where does glycerin fall into that?
Emma: Oh, so glycerin is is most commonly used in tincture world, and it is sweeter tasting than alcohol or oil which is why people go for it. Glycerin you can pull out some more like plant material, some more phytonutrients, polyphenols, it's a really simple compound that's colorless odorless but quite viscous and and does act as a good solvent potentially and is a good option for people again who just don't don't like the taste of alcohol or even just straight oil in their tincture, but I haven't seen like a glycerin infusion in anything else besides a tincture world.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah I was wondering if that - I mean it's kind of sweeter could, sounds like be easily used an edible potentially as well?
Emma: Yeah, no, though I don't really know any edibles that are formulated with glycerin infusions.
Wayne: Yeah. Awesome. Well last question I wanted to end on is, you know, you have Eminent Consulting, so you consult with different businesses and you know, highly focused on the science of cannabis. And I know we've been talking you've recently been traveling, you mentioned Israel, recently got back from Italy. I just want to end on if, you know, ground cannabis, any recent discoveries or anything that's really got you excited about the industry or what's going on with the science of cannabis or anything like that?
Emma: So I mean, all the new states definitely always make me excited. So to follow and work with what's happening in Michigan, Illinois, even have had the opportunity to connect with people in Wisconsin who are really trying to champion some legislative efforts there, which has been really exciting, so always on the front of just like industry development, and globally as well having just been in Italy and they don't have any public access program yet, not even medical, but they are slowly but surely coming around and, and really feeling out the hemp industry. As far as the science, I've seen a lot of focus on research regarding mental health. And that is exciting to me, since that is such an area where I mean, Western medicine doesn't really have much of a good solution for people who are struggling, struggling with issues such as anxiety, depression, OCD, even psychotic disorders. And even in every, almost every day, I searched just like Google Scholar to see what the latest research has been published on cannabis. And by far and wide recently, it's been on depression and psychosis. And of course, the this kind of research is being funded because there are institutions that want to point to cannabis and say, "oh, it causes these things. It's dangerous." However, what some of the findings have been, has been really like hopeful and dramatic for people who are able to implement cannabis as a way to decrease their dose of common pharmaceuticals associated with anxiety. Depression such as SSRIs, or antidepressants in general, and looking even at the potential for CBD to help in psychotic disorders, that that's been really exciting to see. And I'm definitely excited for, for more of that to, to come out.
Wayne: Around those, a thing I've heard in the past is when it's, the study is motivated for a specific agenda, they're kind of looking for a certain result, and I've heard those studies being tossed out or buried and not released because the results didn't go with what they wanted them to say. Is that kind of still the case in the scientific industry, or if you do one of these studies, do you have to, you know, make the results available regardless if they don't agree with what you wanted them to say?
Emma: So, it is still the case that research will kind of be buried or just not publish if it's not in line with the financial interests, which sucks. I mean, that's the opposite of science I think it's still why a lot of people in this day and age, and this is kind of a recent development as far as the turn of the millennium, where people are mistrusting science. Where before it was like, oh, a scientist said it, oh, a doctor said it, it must be true. Whereas now people are, rightfully so, conducting more of an investigation of like, "Oh, well, where's the money trail? Who's actually funding this? Why are these results being published in this way? Why is, why is this data being presented?" etc. And it's a failure of our research system. And it really is a failure of the way that our system is set up to favor profits over information that could actually help people.
Wayne: Yeah, yep, yep. At the end of the day, scientists or doctor, they're still coming from a person and people are flawed and we've got our own issues. So yeah. Last two questions. As we wrap up, number one, any projects or requests that you want to let listeners know about? And then number two, where can people find you?
Emma: Yes. So right now I am kind of like fully booked with travel through through 2019. But there may be an exciting new class that's going to be published on a wonderful new platform that actually is a marketplace for many different types of learning for cannabis. So I'm really excited about that where you can not only take my science courses but also take courses on like cannabis branding or cannabis law, or whatever interests you so look out for that announcement. It should be coming soon in December. But besides that, follow me on Instagram, @echasen, or Eminent Consulting, and then as always, you can check out my website eminentconsultingfirm.com to get a little bit of a better idea about, about what I do or if you have any questions please don't hesitate to get in touch.
Wayne: Awesome. Yeah, let us know on the platforms up, platform is up we'll definitely let listeners know. (Awesome.) Great, thank you for coming on today, Emma. We covered a lot of great stuff in this one. So I didn't want to break this into two parts.
Emma: Yeah, I mean two hours seems to be our way at this point.
Wayne: Yeah. Thank you have amazing weekend.
Emma: Thanks so much Wayne. Always a pleasure.
Cannabis is one of the most complex plants on Earth, which is why it’s known to help with so many different use cases. As we discover more about the science of cannabis it becomes difficult to predict which products will work for different use cases. Our guest is Educator Emma Chasen and we discuss how the many compounds in cannabis could be useful for different effects and ailments.
Link to Email List sign up “Join our Community” and get insights we don’t share anywhere else.
Emma Chasen, Guest: Of course. Yeah, Wayne, it is always, always a pleasure to join you.
Wayne: So with around cannabis, you know, if listeners have listened to past episodes, we've talked a lot about, you know, around effects in cannabis, how it interacts with the body, selecting different types for different ailments, and really getting away from Sativa/Indica when we're looking at how cannabis will affect us. And we really focused a lot on cannabinoids and terpenes as the two primary categories of all stars that influence our experience but there's a lot of other compounds in Cannabis. And so I thought for this one, we could start off by going through what some of those other compounds are, and then probably dive into each one individually and give an overview of them and just kind of dive in. I've heard a lot of budtenders ask, you know about things like esters or flavonoids, but just really not really discussed online. I don't see many articles, a few studies out there. But I mean, terpenes are still a relatively new frontier. And it gets more complex than that. So this one is going to be interesting.
Emma: Yeah, definitely. I think it's a good thing to explore, cuz I know that I talk a lot about the diversity of the cannabis matrix and all of these compounds that are working together synergistically to produce the therapeutic benefit. But really, we talk mostly about cannabinoids and terpenes. And that is just because they are the most dominant they are in the highest concentration and also they seem to be the ones at least with the amount of research that we have behind them, they seem to be the ones that are driving forth this therapeutic experience. However, there are many other classes like you said, including flavonoids, hydrocarbons, alkaloids, and other even like non-cannabinoid phenols. So I think that we should just kind of go go right into it one one by one if that sounds good to you.
Wayne: Yeah, I think that's a great plan. Yeah.
Emma: Awesome. So beyond the cannabinoids and terpenes, we do have flavonoids and we've talked about flavonoids before you've probably seen some buzz about it. Flavonoids, There are 23 identified currently in cannabis with there are the two that are specific to cannabis. So Cannaflavin A and Cannaflavin B are unique to the cannabis plant, whereas the other flavonoids are also found in many different fruits and vegetables and other medicinal plants as well. And so when we say that blueberry has antioxidant properties or Broccoli has anti cancer properties, we are referencing the flavonoids. Flavonoids have documented antioxidant properties meaning that they can take care of something called reactive oxygen species or ROS for short, and so flavonoids conduct something called ROS scavenging where they actually go about and like clean up all these reactive oxygen species and that is what makes them an antioxidant. Reactive oxygen species can cause many different problems down the line including cancers etc. There is also a particular flavonoid that seems to be in the highest concentration among cannabis varieties, and that is called Apigenin and Apigenin is also found in a variety of other plants, fruits and vegetables, and it can selectively bind to our benzodiazepine receptors and so benzodiazepines there are a class of compounds - think like a Xanax. Xanax is an example of a benzodiazepine. And so what engaging the benzodiazepine receptor system means is anxiolytic activity or anti anxiety activity, it can really help to ameliorate any anxiety that occurs especially the more intense like panic that occurs. And so this may be cause to believe that flavonoids also are aiding in the documented anxiolytic properties of cannabis varieties.
Wayne: Interesting. Now I've heard cannabis being used with opioids, being used - being able to use a lower dose of opioids to get the same amount of effects. Could there be some working relationship between cannabis and Xanax? Potentially?
Emma: Yes, definitely. Definitely. I think that, as you mentioned, working with cannabis and opioids, for example, that's because cannabinoids as well as terpenes do favor some of them favor the opioid receptors and are able to engage to produce pain relief activity where as there is also a high dependency on benzodiazepines, Klonopin, Xanax, etc to help people manage anxiety. And there are like heavy withdrawal symptoms associated with trying to get yourself off of those pharmaceuticals. And so, Apigenin, the flavonoid present most abundantly in cannabis definitely points to an opportunity to be able to use cannabis, like you said, in the same way that we use it with opioid dependency to be able to help people lower their dose of those benzodiazepines and hopefully eventually if it's possible even get off of them completely.
Wayne: You said a Cannaflavin A and Cannaflavin B being unique to cannabis - is Apigenin one of those. or is that a different flavonoid?
Emma: No that's a different flavonoid, so Apigenin is found abundantly across many different, many different types of plants, vegetables, fruits, etc. You can also take it as a supplement form. Another popular flavonoid found in cannabis as well as many other plans is called quercetin, Q-U-E-R-C-E-T-I-N, that you can also find abundantly in supplement form.
Wayne: Yeah. When you can take it in supplement form, is that normally an isolate then, and is there potential that these work better when they're with cannabinoids and terpenes together?
Emma: Definitely. So you know that I'm a major proponent of the entourage effect. I'm a major proponent of holistic minded medicinal intervention anyway, especially for the prophylactic or preventative care of just wellness. I do think that the more good stuff that you could get in to the medicine, the better. One of the best analogies that I've heard is like would you rather have one friend at like a really high up place helping you get through a tough time or would you rather have thousands of friends who maybe they're not at like that highest concentration at that highest point point of power, but you have a much larger, larger community of support helping you through a hard time. And that's, that's a good way to look at what's happening here with isolates versus a greater range of compounds, were in an isolated dose or or method of consumption, you may have different side effects that occur that could be ameliorated by many other players that would be in the context of a larger matrix.
Wayne: Yeah, like that analogy. It's so interesting, when you see chemistry almost be correlated to kind of like social, you know, environments or things that happen. So like, you know, as a team, you know, I think as a business owner, when you have a diverse workforce, everyone has different ideas and different perspectives. If you can bring all those together, you really get a better outcome versus a singular mindset or perspective, and that's only direction you're looking at. It kind of works the same way you'd run a business of how you're getting the best experience or effects in your body.
Emma: Exactly, exactly all about the diversity of the ecosystem.
Wayne: Yeah. I do have three questions I want to ask as we get through, as we go through each of these compounds, for each one. So the first one is, could we test for these in a lab? The second one is, are they found in every strain? And if so, at what kind of levels if we know that? And then the third one is, which this is going to tie into what we discuss later, is are they fat soluble or water soluble? And later, we're going to talk about different concentrates and is full spectrum the same across the board. And so I think of what concentrates would actually be able to capture these different compounds that we're talking about. But so for that set of questions, could we test for them? Would they be found in every strain? And then are they fat soluble or water soluble? Or I guess, potentially neither? Maybe.
Emma: So with flavonoids specifically, we could theoretically test for them. There is machinery available where you could absolutely do an asset and test for them. However, in the world of cannabis analytical testing, it is a question of how much money are we going to spend on that additional machinery when it is not at all demanded or mandated by the state. Some of these machines cost upwards of a million dollars and so that's really a large part of the reason why we do not see cannabis analytical testing laboratories test for something like flavonoids. Also because they do exist in fairly low concentrations. Of course, we would be able to know better about that. If we did conduct regular analytical testing on flavonoids across all cannabis varieties. And in that same vein, we do believe that most cannabis varieties have flavonoids that there is some level of concentration of flavonoids there. Especially in low THC cultivars as well as high THC cultivars, it seems to be fairly universal among the drug cultivar cannabis. I, I don't - I don't necessarily know why somebody isn't taking it upon themselves to conduct rigorous flavonoid testing, maybe they are, it would be really cool to see. But again, it's a question of time, money market viability etc. And as far as water solubility and fat solubility, flavonoids are water soluble, water soluble polyphenolic molecules, and so they unlike their terpene and cannabinoid kind of cousins in the matrix, they are not fat soluble, they are more more in line with absorbing into water.
Wayne: Got it and for those I guess. I'm going to start thinking of questions for each compound as we go. Are flav- do we know if flavonoids, like terpenes, are kind of influenced heavily by the environment and different stresses that the plant grows up in? Or is they, are they more based in the DNA and kind of genetics of a strain?
Emma: So, both. There will definitely be like DNA precursors as to what flavonoids are produced in dominant concentrations. However, those specific concentrations will be largely dependent on environmental factors and stresses just like terpenes.
Wayne: Got it. Okay, what's the, one of the next compound what else have we got going on in cannabis?
Emma: We have hydrocarbons as well as nitrogen containing compounds. So we'll start with hydrocarbons. There are about 50 known hydrocarbons detected in cannabis and they are consisting of what we call alkanes in chemistry, so I'm going to go throw around a lot of chemistry terms during during this episode. So definitely feel free to kind of like dive into those on your own listeners to look up the different structures, but hydrocarbons I mean, as the name suggests, they are compounds that are made of hydrogen and carbon. Like I said, there are 50 known detected in cannabis. And what I'm referencing, also I'll say is a chapter out of a book that was written in the mid 2000s. And so of course, this this number may be a little bit different than then what it looked like in the mid 2000s, dependent on the research that came out. The major alkane and the major hydrocarbon present when they did conduct extraction and steam distillation was the alkane nonacosane, and there aren't much associated properties with these hydrocarbons yet. We know that they, we know that they exist. We know that they're there and we know that they're able to be extracted at the.. They are present in, in especially like essential oil extractions.
Wayne: Hm. And a lot of the solvents we use are hydrocarbon-based as well. Is that right?
Emma: Yes. Yes. So like BHO, PHO, they are hydrocarbon based solvents.
Wayne: Interesting. And so and then you said hydrocarbons we don't think have as much to do around effects or how it might influence experience.
Emma: Right. We don't know, at least at this point to answer your your three questions per category hydrocarbons, just like the solvents PHO or BHO are not water soluble, and so they do not. They do not dissolve into water. However, it is important to think about if you are running different extractions, and when we talk about concentrates later, if you're using a hydrocarbon solvent, you may in fact be pulling out a lot of the hydrocarbons from the cannabis matrix and so you could have a larger, a larger concentration of those hydrocarbons if you are going to be using a hydrocarbon solvent.
Wayne: If a compound isn't water soluble, does that mean it is fat soluble? Or some compounds neither soluble in either fat or water.
Emma: So really, a better way to describe it is polar and non-polar, instead of water soluble and fat soluble. So there are solvents and there are molecules that are polar versus non-polar. And it comes down to really the way that the molecule is bound together. And so a polar molecule always contains polar bonds. But some molecules with polar bonds may be also non-polar. And again, this is where we get into the kind of like Nitty nitty gritty of chemistry and so it's really, it comes down to the polarity of, of your solvent. So how likely is it that a polar solvent is going to pull out polar molecules, very likely. Where it's, it's tricky without. It's tricky to describe it in this medium of podcasting, because chemistry can get really, really almost like philosophical and better to see, to see diagrams and to look it up, but when we delineate down to the solvents, like alcohol, for example, alcohol can pull out both non-polar and polar molecules and that's why we get a lot of like plant material for example, that is, that is more polar, which is in line with water solubility in something like a tincture, etc. Whereas with BHO or hydrocarbon, you're you're not going to really pull out any any of the polar molecules, you're going to only pull the non-polar, which are more in line with fat soluble compounds, if that makes sense.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And so the big ones cannabinoids and terpenes are both non-polar then, they pull out in fat and (yes) Okay, got it.
Emma: Yes. No, that's where like what - exactly, exactly. And that's where flavonoids would be more polar. And so if you are running an extraction, you're probably not going to pull out many flavonoids.
Wayne: What do they do to - they take like THC and make it water soluble. Are they doing something that makes, turns it polar? Or what is that? I think we've talked about that in the past to make it water soluble.
Emma: So they're either doing an encapsulation or an emulsification reaction. So an encapsulation is when they actually take the THC molecule and they encapsulate it, they surround it in this like biopolymer that allows it to be water soluble, and so it contains all of the non-polar bonds right and, and so thereby allows it to be water soluble, whereas you can also conduct an emulsification reaction, where you kind of blast the THC molecules apart from each other. And it allows it to better emulsify, it doesn't necessarily dissolve into water. But this is where for something like an infused drink, you can do an emulsification reaction where at least your THC molecules will be better distributed among, among the water or the solvent that you're using, and thereby will allow for easier absorption and better digestibility.
Wayne: Got it, and they'll be evenly distributed. So you will have one drink, that's higher potency and another drink that is lower? (Exactly) Could the emulsification over time, if left to age, start to reverse and lose that kind of, you know, evenly spread out through the drink and have that issue where it comes back together and becomes non water soluble again?
Emma: I think so. I mean that that is definitely the hypothesis that I would have. I'm not sure if there's been kind of proprietary technology that allows it to retain at that state but I mean, it's not its natural state. And so when we think about things in in chemistry and science together, if you are if you are putting something into its non natural state just by the universal laws, it will try to return to its natural state. And so I do think that if you have a drink, let's say that has gone through this nano emulsification it may eventually over time not be as emulsified as it was, when when the reaction occurred.
Wayne: What about um, so next one, you mentioned nitrogen compounds if you want those ones next?
Emma: Yes. So this is actually interesting because cannabis is one of the very rare psychotropic plants in which the central nervous system activity or the psychotropic activity that we experience is not linked to alkaloids. So most other medicinal plants their psychotropic-containing compounds that are part of this class of compounds called alkaloids and alkaloids do have nitrogen in them. Now we have identified two alkaloids in cannabis among more than 70 different nitrogen-containing constituents. And again, we aren't quite sure if they have any medicinal or therapeutic properties associated with them. But in medicinal plants in general, the alkaloids are helping or assisting in or even the sole, the sole reason for psychotropic activity. So that makes me think like, oh, okay, are these alkaloids and these many different nitrogen containing compounds among the 70 of them that have been identified - are they in some way aiding or even subtracting to the psychotropic activity that we experienced by THC binding to our CB1 receptors?
Wayne: Yeah. Do you think over time, you know, 10 years, 20 years - they'll be able to develop studies to really determine which of these compounds are synergistic with effects in our body, and you know which one specifically, or because it's so complex and dynamic, will be really hard to get to that answer eventually?
Emma: I think it will be hard to establish like rigid set reasons for a particular experience because ultimately, it comes down to your unique physiology as well. So that's a huge kind of player in this game where we can and we already have identified okay Linalool, coupled with THCA coupled with CBD helps to increase the anticonvulsant activity. So we can through research and scientific investigation, document and elucidate these synergistic effects that may be occurring between compounds. However, the the kind of intervention that that we arrived at, or the Crossroads is that every single person has a unique ECS that's constant changing. So I do think, to answer your question, we can find kind of general guidelines. However, I don't think that will ever arrive at a place of like, "Oh, this is exactly true for every single person."
Wayne: Right? Yeah, yeah, that's just another layer of the dynamics to it. All right, what's the, what's the next compound?
Emma: So next we can go on to carbohydrates, which this is more in line with our primary class of compounds, meaning that they're not that medicinal. Common sugars are the dominant constituents of this class of compounds. I mean, we have monosaccharides, we have disaccharides, polysaccharides. This looks like fructose glucose cellulose - very common in plants. Pectin even, which is also found in apples. We also have 12 sugar alcohols, so sorbitol, glycerol. You've probably seen this, these even on ingredients lists for many different things. And two amino sugars, glucosamine is one of them. And so these of course, are more involved in the function of being able to keep the plant alive. They are typically water soluble and they, they do not make their way into the the extractions, into the concentrates as you really don't want to, you don't want to smoke these.
Wayne: Yeah, I was gonna ask and maybe I don't know if we'll get to some of these. But if we're not talking about like pesticides, or anything that's external that the plant could pick up that the plant actually produces. Is there anything we don't want to smoke? Because when we smoked the raw flower, we're getting what's in there, and then when we extract it, we're vaping it you know, we could be losing some things. But are there any concerns around the raw flower of what the cannabis plant naturally produces that might not be beneficial?
Emma: Sure, yes. I mean, it is the case of just smoking any kind of raw plant material is never going to be great for your lungs. It's never going to be without risk. I should say because in the combustion reaction and and in pyrolysis in general, yes, you're losing some of the compounds but also you are transforming the the plant material that actually exists and our lungs are not necessarily built to be able to recycle out exogenous compounds that shouldn't be in there. We we didn't necessarily evolve by, with smoking or evolve with heating and inhaling some of these more like contaminants and that, that specifically is more in line with concentrates. But with the plant material, there will always be risk with lighting any plant material on fire, whether it's cannabis or tobacco or mullein and, and inhaling it into your lungs.
Wayne: Yeah, maybe with that topic or that kind of focus there. We could talk about lipids next, and especially with the vaping crisis right now. Potentially vaping lipids which are fats, and then they get your lungs, they cool again, they stick to the lungs, that might be leading to some of these illnesses that we're seeing. I know a lot of extracts talk about winterization, which I believe removes the lipids and the fats. But I've also heard that there's some benefits to the lipids and fats potentially. And I thought if we're smoking the raw flower, we must be consuming some of those lipids. So can we talk about lipids next, those compounds and are there pros and cons to those?
Emma: Definitely. So lipids or in the case of the class of compounds, fatty acids, they are most abundantly concentrated in cannabis seeds. So that's also an important thing to to be cognizant of. A total of 33 different fatty acids, which are mainly unsaturated fatty acids have been identified, specifically in the oil that you get after you press the cannabis seed. Linoleic acid makes up about 60% of the total fatty acid and oleic acid are also the most common ones that we see and these have health benefits. I mean these you can also find outside of cannabis they are not specific to cannabis and good fats are good for you. There are also saturated fatty acids as well that exists within the cannabis plant. And the the fatty acid spectrum of cannabis seeds does not significantly vary in in oil produced from the drug cultivars or the dominant THC cultivars or the low THC hemp fiber type cannabis. So it's fairly consistent among among all cannabis seeds, and seed oil, but yes, important point that most of our fatty acids are concentrated in the seeds and so therefore, we don't we don't really put ourselves at much risk because we're not smoking the seeds. And this this is important again, to note that our lungs were not built for heating and inhaling fat or lipids, it was not built to be able to get rid of the gunk that builds up when the fats recoagulate in the lungs and block the exchange of gases, however it is really healthy for you to ingest and digest. And so eating cannabis seeds are, it's not a bad idea if you want it to toast some up very high in Linoleic and Oleic acid which do have various health benefits.
Wayne: Interesting so not much in the actual flower then, when we're consuming it there to be concerned of?
Emma: No definitely more, definitely more associated with the, the seeds.
Wayne: And so on a concentrate or extract, when those are more concentrated. I have seen - you know, they winterize to remove the lipids. Is there actually not as much of a concern. I mean, if you were to vaporize something that wasn't winterized or had some lipids, would they normally be in really low contentrations then even in the extract or concentrate form?
Emma: So, you should still winterize your concentrates because even if you don't have lipids, you will have waxes and carbohydrates left behind and so what actually comes out of the co2 machine before winterization is really like thick and gloopy, it's opaque. It's just like opaque yellow - it looks like wax because there is so much wax in there, and you do not want to smoke wax, you don't want to heat and inhale wax. Of course, I'm not talking about the kind of colloquial term that's been applied to some forms of BHO, it's actual plant waxes that you do not want to heat and inhale. And so winterization is definitely still important, washing it in alcohol and being able to remove more of those polar compounds.
Wayne: Okay, so it's not just removing the lipids, it's the waxes the carbohydrates as well? (Yes) Yeah, co2 oil, you know, it can be vaporized or consumed that way. And then I see another form that I've seen called raw co2 oil, which is made to orally consume and so is that the raw co2 oil just hasn't been winterized yet?
Emma: It I think, yes, yes. And I'm not quite sure on that. Hence my hesitation as there are so many different marketing terms out there and some people are are marketing raw co2 oil as full extract cannabis oil. It's it's different. When we look at like FECO. For example, the full extract cannabis oil that has been extracted with alcohol at Low Temp, you are retaining carbohydrates, you're retaining pigments, you're retaining fatty acids. That's why the oil is so dark in color, and opaque and that is fine to ingest. That's good, in fact, that is like super, super full spectrum because you are retaining those phytonutrients and polyphenols that are there and same idea with the way that some people are producing raw co2. Now do you have the full spectrum of polyphenols and phytonutrients that you'll get with an alcohol extraction in line with FECO? No, but you will definitely have more than you would for a co2 that has been winterized that has gone through either a rotoevaporation to remove the alcohol or even a further steam distillation to further separate out the compounds. So it will provide you a greater range of compound diversity than what you would see for a co2 that is meant to be heated and inhaled.
Wayne: Are FECO and RSO always the same thing or could those be two different things? Because I hear that interchanged sometimes.
Emma: So FECO is an RSO style cannabis extract. RSO It stands for Rick Simpson oil, Rick Simpson being the person who popularized this method of consumption specifically to help manage and kill cancer. But he for one is not like super thrilled about his name being put on all these many different products that are coming out by many different companies. He also in his, in his initial formulation of RSO, he used a Napa or kerosene ether as a, as a solvent, which that is an incredibly dangerous highly flammable not healthful hydrocarbon solvent. I mean we're talking about like, like something in line with paint thinner, like not not great but good at pulling out the cannabinoids and terpenes since it's a very selective solvent, however, FECO is done at low temperatures. So you're pulling out a lot more of the phytonutrients and polyphenols. It's also using, hopefully an organic sugar cane alcohol that will be way less selective in the compounds that it pulls out. Again, creating a higher retention of those polyphenols phytonutrients including cannabinoids, terpenes, etc. And so there is differences between FECO and RSO but what we can say is FECO is an RSO style cannabis oil.
Wayne: Okay, what- and we talked about vaping and certain compounds not wanting to inhale. When we're talking about orally consuming, are there the any of the compounds were concerned with when digesting cannabis or products that way?
Emma: So our digestive systems are really like robust and rigorous. I mean, talk about evolution, they evolved with us with our ancestors just like picking up random things on the road. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Just like picking up whatever we could find from the earth to test to see if it was viable. And so we evolved with many different mechanisms in place including our liver that is really really really good at filtering out poisons and, and anything that may not be helpful and also we have kind of objection opportunities built in, it's like you could throw up, you could get it out of you and so there's a lot less concern as far as like the the actual compounds present in the Plant matrix. Of course there is concern around pesticides and other contaminants that are put on there. And we can't digest cellulose. Like that's not a good time for us so we will get a stomach ache if you tried to just like eat a bunch of cannabis flower, you would not feel good and you would probably want to throw up however, is it going to kill you? No.
Wayne: Got it, okay. What's - We got some more compounds left?
Emma: Yes. So let's go into alcohols, aldehydes, ketones, acids, esters, and lactones. So I'm going to get to esters last since there's the most to say about that. But we do have seven alcohols present in the matrix including methanol and ethanol. There are 13 ketones. So acetone is an example of a really popular one. We also do have 21 acids, Azaelic acid and Gluconic acid have been identified. There are 11 Phytosterols, all of these classes of compounds are just kind of a part of, a part of the matrix. And not necessarily like again doing much but they are there they are there in a like low low concentration, I mean totally have seven alcohols, 12 aldehydes, 13 ketones, 21 acids - compared to the over 200 identified terpenes. Right? It's a small piece of the pie chart, but again, could absolutely be contributing to some kind of therapeutic effect. Now with esters, so, esters - and this here I'm talking, or I'm citing an article that was published in 2016 called "cannabinoid ester constituents from high potency cannabis sativa". And this paper outlined 11 new cannabinoid esters that had been identified. So to backtrack a little bit, an ester - it is a class of organic compounds that is made most often from carboxylic acids as well as alcohol. And so, a carboxylic acid would be our cannabinoid acids so THCA, CBGA, CBDA - so esters are actually derived from our raw cannabinoids. And you need also an alcohol in place and what they found in this particular study was that the alcohol was coming from terpene alcohols. So a good way to identify if a compound is an alcohol or to guess that it's an alcohol is that it ends in "-ol" the name. So if you think of like fenchol or borneol or terpineol, all of these terpenes are terpene alcohols, technically, since they have a hydroxyl group or an -OH group as part of it. And so an esterification reaction occurs when you have your raw cannabinoid, your carboxylic acid THCA for example, and you combine it with an alcohol and what you get is an ester. And esters, they are colorless, they're very volatile. So meaning that they burn off into air very quickly, but they have very, very pleasant odors. And so, it is suggested that esters are also responsible for the incredibly identifiable smell of cannabis and cannabis varieties. If you think about like, bananas, for example, that like smell that is so strongly linked to banana smell is because of esters, same kind of idea with wintergreen, with pineapples, and esters because of their really pleasant odors have been used in many different perfumes etc. Like I said, there are 11 cannabinoid esters as of 2016 identified and they were isolated from many different varieties of cannabis. So they are present it seems throughout, throughout the species. And for example, I'll give you an example of one of the names of them. So if we had the terpene fenchol combined with THCA, what we would get was, would be beta-fenchol-delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinolate. That would be the Ester that is produced - definitely a mouthful. But you can also produce an ester from CBGA and you could also produce an ester from CBDA, dependent again on the concentration of the terpene alcohol as well as the concentration of your carboxylic acid or your cannabinoid acid. Different properties were evaluated among the esters and what they found is that just like their acidic cannabinoid parents, they cannot bind to CB1 receptors so there's no real engagement of the endocannabinoid system. However, they do seem to have documented antimicrobial and antimalarial activity. So not only are they contributing to the very pleasant odor that comes from cannabis, they are also contributing potentially to therapeutic action in the way of antimicrobial efficacy.
Wayne: Okay, So not much probably around the effects or psychoactive piece how terpenes and cannabinoids might work together on that end, but potentially some therapeutic benefits to those.
Emma: Yes, definitely. And just those kinds of like additional, additional charges where - okay in the same way that like apigenin, the flavonoid, has the ability to activate or or engage the benzodiazepine receptors and may amplify the axiolytic activity, while not really engaging the endocannabinoid system, same kind of deal with esters where they may not be able to engage the cannabinoid system, but they may enhance the therapeutic efficacy of any antimicrobial activity that's coming from a cannabis variety.
Wayne: Where those 11 esters identified - are those unique to cannabis?
Emma: Yes, so they are unique to cannabis as they are unique to THCA, CBGA, CBDA.
Wayne: Okay, I was reading one of the article you sent over and now I think around 483 compounds identified in cannabis - is cannabis a really unique plant in the complexity and the amount of compounds it produces, or are there other plants that can produce that many different compounds as well?
Emma: Cannabis is definitely a standout in terms of just having such a range of therapeutic potential and efficacy and even I mean, added and aided by our bodies having a system built in that is actually designed to to be able to be engaged by cannabis and cannabis constituents. We see in other medicinal plants of course, a range of - a range of medicinal compounds. However cannabis has quite a diverse array and the abundance of cannabinoids and terpenes are, really makes it stand out as I had mentioned most other medicinal plants, they get their medicinal action from an alkaloid, maybe a couple of alkaloids and that's about it. And it's for a singular focus where we know, "Okay, Mimosa pudica is good for sleep, because it has this certain compound. Atropa Belladonna can help with problems of the eye because of this alkaloid. Whereas cannabis, it's like, oh, well, let's just run the gamut of potential, like therapeutic intervention. And another added benefit of it is that it is so damn safe. There's such low risk associated with it. Whereas, take Atropa Belladonna again, for example, you just a slight adjustment in the dose of that could be poisonous for one person, where it could be okay for another person and be therapeutically effective, where that is the real power of cannabis not only in its incredible compound diversity, but also in how low risk it is.
Wayne: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I don't - I don't know if there is a God or intelligent design, but the cannabis plant just seems like it was made for humans. And the fact that's been illegal for this long and all these different compounds. And like we've talked about this before cannabis isn't necessarily the silver bullet, but it is so surprising with how many different things that can help with and you know, people coming into cannabis having a certain kind of ailment. And I've heard this from people that talk to doctors are like, oh, write your prescription for cannabis. Now you can go try it, they could try 10 different products that don't have good effects for them. But there still might be that cannabis product there. I mean, all these things, we're talking about - finding the right matrix that would work for them. And the more and more we talk, I mean, we are only at the very very tip of the iceberg of figuring out what's right for someone you know for well being or medical ailments, just fast fascinating how many different things this could potentially do and unique it is in the plant kingdom.
Emma: Yes, it's - it's so exciting. I mean, it offers such a good option for people who have been struggling for so long.
Wayne: Yeah. Another compound I'd written down - polyphenols?
Emma: Yeah, yes. So these are - so I'll say that cannabinoids are part of a class of compounds called terpinophenolic compounds and that is just again a class of organic compounds. There are also non cannabinoid phenols, what we call polyphenols that also have a variety of documented therapeutic potential medicinal efficacy, I mean anywhere from being able to help manage like blood flow and circulation to being more antioxidant to being anti proliferative. There are identified 34 non cannabinoid phenols are known right now in the cannabis plant. An example of this, which you may have heard is cannabispirone. And, again, they have a variety of documented potential in terms of the anticonvulsant, increasing blood flow, pain relief, antianxiety efficacy - we don't really have again, a good like locked down of "these are the associated properties for these specific phenols". We just know that they are probably influencing some of the therapeutic action that's existing.
Wayne: Yeah, it seems like all these extra compounds really looked like they would apply to medical ailments or medicinal benefits. If we're just talking about the rec market or someone consuming for the fun of it or just because they like it in that scenario, are we is it do you think the future is for recreational its cannabinoids and terpenes. We'll look at those but when we're talking about medical ailments, all these other companies are not as much of a consideration for rec. But when we're talking about medical ailments, they really are. Do you think that's how these compounds will be looked at in the future?
Emma: Probably, though I do think that also some of like the flavonoids, the phenol, for example, they also can really help potentially to ameliorate the uncomfortable side effects, which that will still be a cause for concern, even in the purely rec market, even in the purely, "I want to have fun, I want to get high. That's all I want to do." Well, okay - you want to have fun, so you don't want to have a bad time. You don't want to be uncomfortable - well looking at these other compounds that we can include. Again, the example of the flavonoid apigenin, which will help to prevent panic attacks. Well, then you you also will want to examine that but I think that you are absolutely right in that really rigorous investigation and identification of these compounds and their associated properties and an even creating targeted formulations and, and compounding pharmacy almost of including some of these specific compounds for a specific effect will be way more in line with medicinal applications.
Wayne: Yeah, and I think I saw - I think it was Marinol, which was a THC isolate, one of the first ones they really tried to use for studies or therapeutic benefit, and really didn't deliver on the experience or the effects, I think nausea and a little bit of uncomfortableness like you were saying or panic around it. It wasn't quite as effective. Was that the case with Marinol? And it wasn't a isolated THC. Is that what that was?
Emma: Yes, I believe Marinol is the isolated THC. And then Sativex was a combination of THC and CBD I believe, but yes, they they found that while it did increase appetite and help to ameliorate like the nausea and vomiting, which is what, is what this drug was designed for. It created a whole litany of side effects and made people like feel really uncomfortable and having just reactions and that's why I mean when we look to the rec market where people are like, okay, I want to have fun I want to get high, then THC and only THC is what I need. It's actually like, No, you want to look at the other cannabinoids present, you want to look at the terpenes, you want to look at, of course hopefully in the future, the the polyphenols and the flavonoids and all of these other wonderful compounds to make sure that you are actually getting the experience that you want. Because just THC alone is not necessarily that fun. I mean, it's it may be for many people, but there also is higher risk associated with having an uncomfortable experience.
Wayne: Yeah, it seems like that, you know, over consumption, I think it's called biphasic effect where at a lower dose that acts this way, but at too much of a dose the effects can turn and protecting against that biphasic effect, more so with these other compounds versus just the isolated form, you're more at risk to have a negative experience.
Emma: Exactly, exactly
Wayne: We talked about cellulose a little bit. Another one I wrote down was chlorophyll - is that kind of inert when it comes to consumption? I know its part of the color of the plant, or is there any benefits or negatives to chlorophyll?
Emma: So, yes, chlorophyll - it is a pigment. It's a pigment that is used to help the plant create or undergo photosynthesis. It is green, it's why the plant's green. There's also carotene as well as xanthophylls are reported pigments as well. Chlorophyll does have some antioxidant properties. It is sold as a, as a supplement and you can even drink chlorophyll straight. There is conflicting research and evidence as to the actual efficacy of it being able to help with digestive issues, as that's what it's usually marketed by. I can say that my mom started giving us like straight chlorophyll when we were two years old. And so I have been drinking it since I was two years old and I love it. I think it's wonderful and it does help me whether it's placebo or not, I don't really care - it helps me in my, in my digestive woes at times, but it is not something that you want to smoke. So that is again why like these - these formulation methodologies exist such as winterization to be able to remove as much of the plant material as possible and that includes the pigments.
Wayne: If you consumed - I think it's, I don't know if it's carrots - there's some fruit or vegetable if you eat enough it can tint your skin. If you consume enough chlorophyll, could do potentially tint green?
Emma: I don't know but that would be very cool. And I would try it.
Wayne: Halloween costume!
Emma: Exactly. Go full witch, but yes, that is that is the case with beta carotene. If you eat too many carrots, you can turn your skin a hue of like yellowish orange which is funny. Um, but again doesn't have much like documented risk associated with it so, so when I say that like yes you can consume chlorophyll it may help you it may but it probably won't hurt you if you're just consuming it through digestion.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah interesting. Are there any other compounds I think that's all I had on my list - anything else to cover?
Emma: I'm the only one that I have left is that according to this chapter, which I did do a little bit of research and I couldn't find any conflicting information in regards to this. Vitamin K is the only vitamin found in cannabis, which I didn't know! So that was really cool to, to read this and kind of get to the end of this paper here and and be like, okay, vitamin K - only vitamin found in cannabis. Nice.
Wayne: Yeah, there's no vitamins we inhale or smoke is is there in that method, or I guess we'd be inhaling vitamin K potentially it was in there.
Emma: Potentially. Yeah, but you're absolutely right that that we mostly digest vitamins. That's how we take them in. I'm not sure if vitamin K would change molecular structure, if it was heated or even if it would just immediately denature, or if we're able to inhale vitamins. You actually bring up a good - a good point that I have never really thought about.
Wayne: Sometimes yeah, those different consumption methods - I mean can be harmful or bad for certain things but sometimes that other method can be make it a lot more bioavailable or better easily or consumed and you know, get the max amount out of it. That'll be interesting.
Emma: Definitely.
Wayne: I did want to ask minor cannabinoids before we switch over to some user questions. Are there any specific minor cannabinoids that - you know CBD, tons of popularity - that might be coming onto the scene soon either in products or certain strains grown with those? And also, do you think minor cannabinoids will be, I don't think holy grail is the right word. But really when we're trying to predict effects and experience there, are they really going to take a dominant position in products to get different effects in the future?
Emma: I think that they could. I think that there's large potential for these minor cannabinoids to come on center stage if you will. I predict that the next one that will be on the rise is CBG. So CBD we know is having its 15 minutes of fame, but there are some really lovely genetics that I've seen that are dominant in CBG that are coming over from Europe that master growers and breeders are working with here and and throughout the country and CBG, like CBD, affords such a wide range of therapeutic potential and has really low risk associated with it. And I mean, it can be helpful for so many different things from anxiety and depression to digestive disorders to seizure disorders, to helping to reduce tumor size and and cancers etc. So I think that that's going to be, going to be the next one that's really going to going to have its its fame
Wayne: Yeah and I think a really cool thing about the Farm Bill - and correct me if I'm wrong but - it allows legally all these minor cannabinoids to be federally legal now grown in a strain produced or made into a product and sold. Is that the case and even for the minor cannabinoid THCV can legally, it could be grown in hemp and sold just like hemp stuff is right now?
Emma: Sure. Yeah, I mean, it is the blanket kind of statement that the Farm Bill gave us that it's - okay well just plants with less than 0.3% THC are fine under, under this bill and so you definitely can have your CBG or CBC and, and those cannabinoid types. THCV is an interesting one, and I wonder if there will be there will be kind of legal proceedings around that if breeders do decide to bring THCV dominant cannabis to the to the greater national market because it is still classified under the THC type of cannabinoids, I'm not sure how the federal government would handle that. Whereas they did not, I don't believe that they specified that in the language of the Farm Bill as I'm remembering it. However, I think it would definitely create some some sense of legal battle and, and it would, I think it would push them to further clarify what the bill was outlining and allowing.
Wayne: Yeah, and I think I saw somewhere that 0.3% are under the official calculation they use for that is THCA plus delta-9-THC. I think they're only taking those two in a lab report and I think they add them and maybe they take a fraction or something but their that's their formula for calculating that 0.3% - might be factored in. At this point if it has good effects and it's psychoactive, I think they would, you know, probably do something about it that starts showing up in products, but it'd be interesting.
Emma: Yes, and that that's exactly right. Whereas even when you look at a certificate analysis for products here, what you're seeing is a reaction or a formula that is estimating the total amount of delta nine so I believe it's like delta-9-THC plus THCA times I think it's 0.877 if I'm correct, and that will give you the estimated potential of your delta-9-THC. And so THCV is outside of that reaction. But I do think that if a lot of THCV-dominant stuff started popping up in these CBD shops, and even like coffee shops across the country, that the federal government or even the state that government would step in and be like, "Whoa, okay, we we didn't know about this. But now we need to retroactively take this into consideration."
Wayne: Yeah. And then delta-8-THC is another one. I don't think that's factored. I don't know if that can be - I think I've seen products with Delta-8. Is that also grown in strains?
Emma: Yes. So it is, it is in cannabis varieties, though in very, very low concentrations. There are a very few number of prize genetics that I have heard whisperings about among breeders and different scientists that have an abundance of delta-8-THC. And I know that right now there's kind of testing around what the experience looks like delta-8-THC. Delta-8 is much, much less psychotropic but it has even greater therapeutic potential in some arenas then delta-9 and so it's a good alternative for people who don't like getting high, but who do feel the therapeutic benefits of delta-9.
Wayne: Yeah. And then the, the other 11-hydroxy-THC happens in our body after we consume Delta-9. And that's not possible to be grown actually in this strain at all, is it?
Emma: No, no. So the plant won't produce that. That, just as like the plant won't produce - well it will produce a little bit of delta-9 there won't produce a dominance of delta-9. Yeah, the plant won't produce 11-hydroxy-THC at all, I don't believe because it, it has to go through that, that hydroxylation reaction - whether it is smoking, inhaling or ingesting. The Delta-9 will turn into 11-hydroxy-THC and then through further oxidation turn into that 11-nor-9-carboxy-THC that sits in our bodies for a while.
Wayne: And that's - the 11-nor-9, that's kind of the inert, dormant one that kind of loses its effectiveness and hangs around?
Emma: Yes. Yes, exactly hangs around in our fat cells. And it's the one that drug tests are actually screening for - does not seem at this point to have much therapeutic value, though that has not been largely investigated.
Wayne: And I think we talked before, maybe someone's working on this, but 11 hydroxy, being a smaller molecule and much more potent. And psychoactive. Has there been any news or development, you know, like that we could potentially do that in a lab setting, and then you could actually consume the 11-hydroxy-THC molecule?
Emma: I believe that you could, yes, I - there's no reason why you couldn't run a hydroxylation reaction of delta-9 to 11-hydroxy in a lab and then sell the 11-hydroxy. It would be an interesting experience. It would be intense right off the bat. And I wonder if the oxidation reaction into 11-nor-9 would run quicker, or, or what that would look like? I'm not quite sure, but it would definitely be a different experience than consuming Delta-9.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah.
Disclaimer: The ideas presented in this podcast are meant for general informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. The Periodic effects podcast, Periodic edibles, and all affiliated subsidiaries disclaim any liability for any damages arising out of reliance on the information presented. Please consult licensed professionals for any medical, legal or business advice.
The hardest part of running a successful cannabis company is the constantly shifting landscape. What worked last year might not work this year. Our guests are Carrie Solomon & Jody Ake, Co-Founders of Leif Goods and Greater Goods. We discuss their journey and insights on bootstrapping THC products in Oregon, going through a cannabis accelerator program, raising money and now launching a line of Hemp CBD products and Retail store front.
JOB OPPORTUNITY: Hiring for Sales Account Manager for West Coast, also hiring for chocolatier soon, discussed at end of episode.
Sales and Distribution models aren’t new, but applying them to cannabis (legally) are. How does a brand get on the shelf? Then cultivate relationships and reputation? Then increase sell through rates? While being logistically efficient with distribution costs? Our guest is Alexi Cashen, CEO & Co-Founder of Elenteny Imports and we discuss those items while predicting the future of imports, exports and interstate commerce.
With Cannabis marketing being so restrictive, how do brands get creative and gain exposure? Our guest is Kirk Evans, Co-Founder of Sherpa, a digital marketing agency. We discuss insights for leveraging SEO and Websites to create foot traffic in dispensaries, along with other digital strategies for brands and product companies.
Cannabis Retailers are battling oversaturation with multiple competitors in walking distance. When consumers have so many shops to choose from, how does a Retailer stand out? Some are starting to differentiate themselves by switching to Effects-Based merchandising and education. Today’s guest is Bruce Caruso, General Manager for Green Oasis. We discuss how Bruce stopped selling on Sativa & Indica and what it’s doing for the bottom line.
How is science different from technology? And why are these merging around cannabis to usher in the new frontier? Our guest is Ruth Fisher, Ph.D., Author of “The Medical Cannabis Primer” and Co-Founder of Cann Dynamics. We discuss the potential futures of cannabis and what it will take for the adoption and use of cannabis to move into the mainstream.
INVESTOR OPPORTUNITY: Discussed at end of episode.
A lot of insights in this episode. How small businesses can win as big money moves into cannabis. What’s wrong with the Vaping Crisis Bans. Defining “Craft Extracts” and what Dispensaries & Budtenders should consider for vape products on their shelves. Our guest is Mitra Sticklen, COO & Co-Owner of OM Extracts.
JOB OPPORTUNITY: OM Extracts & Farms is looking to hire in Southern Oregon, discussed at end of episode.
RESEARCH OPPORTUNITY: OM is also looking for Scientists interested in research projects, discussed at end of episode.
Should you invest in cannabis? If so, where in the industry? Or if you’re trying to raise money or sell your business, how do you “value” your company? It’s not an easy question to answer, but we provide some clarity in this episode. Our guest is Lincoln Eckhardt, Managing Director for FTI Consulting.
This episode has 2 Parts - 1. The story of building a business from scratch and the unknown unknowns that could take you out, 2. Insights on marketing cannabis flower & CPG products. Our guest is Julia Jacobson, CEO & Co-Founder of Aster Farms, a sustainable cannabis farm in Northern California who previously launched a Tech Company, went through TechStars incubator and then sold the business.
JOB OPPORTUNITY: Aster Farms is hiring for multiple positions, discussed at end of episode.
The cannabis industry is moving quickly and the perspective from legacy operators can provide many insights on a proper path forward. Our guest is Kristen Yoder, Advisor and Founder of Soil to the Oil, who’s been working in the California industry for 14+ years. Kristen advises cannabis companies on strategy. We discuss the questions she asks her clients, who should and shouldn’t get into cannabis and her overall thoughts on how cannabis will evolve.
Sales and Distribution Channels are key pillars for every companies success. However standards and best practices haven’t been set for the cannabis industry yet. As the market continues to mature, what will make brands and cannabis products stand out? Our guest is Brian Dewey, VP of Sales & Distribution for Kiva Confections, the largest edible company in North America. We discuss how the Kiva Team made that happen with strategies you can use in your business.
JOB OPPORTUNITY: Kiva is hiring for multiple positions, discussed at end of episode.
The cannabis industry is evolving faster than ever and consumers have many options to choose from. Unless you want to compete on low price, there are other types of value you must provide as a business. Our guest is Max Simon, CEO & Founder of Green Flower Media, a cannabis education platform for universities, businesses and consumers. We discuss what Max learned working with Deepak Chopra on building a community of raving fans & loyal customers.
JOB OPPORTUNITY: Green Flower is hiring for multiple positions, discussed at end of episode.