Is all “Full Spectrum” the same? There are many types of concentrates and extracts, but what makes them different? In this episode we simplify all the concentrates into 4 simple categories to better understand their different attributes and determine what cannabis product is best for you or your customers. Our guest is Educator Emma Chasen and this is Part 2 from Pe124.
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Episode Transcription:
Emma Chasen, Guest: So yes, full spectrum has become quite a marketing term. So that's also important to be mindful of, as you mentioned, we met it's just on a lot of labels now and so it's important to investigate. I have a relationship with budtender who works in Portland where I mentor her and she sent me a picture of a cartridge package that said "full spectrum distillate" and she was like yeah, I pushed the vendor on like, "Oh, well is this actually a distillate?" And they were like yeah, it's a just a cannabinoid distillate but it retains all of the the terpenes and, and all the good stuff. And so it's full spectrum. And she was reaching out to me being like, what? And I was like, well, yeah full spectrum distillate is almost oxymoronic, where you can't have a distillate and have it be full spectrum. I mean full spectrum in its definition, means that you are preserving the unique fingerprint of the plant material in terms of the constituents of the actual cannabis matrix. And so there are some people in the cannabis industry who operate under the school of thought that full spectrum in order to like really be full spectrum, you have to include the phytonutrients, the pigments, the polyphenols. And if that's the case, well then really only full extracts cannabis oil or FECO, that is that dark, dark color that's used organic alcohol that has been formulated with very low temperature over a long period of time. That would really be the only, the only product category in essence, that would be full spectrum maybe also tinctures because you're not applying any heat to that. It but again, it would have to be a really crude extraction of alcohol for a long period of time. So that's one school of thought. However, as I mentioned, you can't safely heat and inhale those products, that would not be good for you. You do not want to heat and inhale plant waxes, lipids, carbohydrates, pigments, etc. And so there's also another school of thought that says okay, well there's a full spectrum that's designed for ingestion that can include a much larger range of polyphenols and carbohydrates and phytonutrients. But then there's also a full spectrum that's designed for heating and inhaling, whether it be smoking or really vaporizing and that is where you have something like a subcritical co2 extraction that takes a longer time, that runs at a lower temperature, where you are separating out your terpenes from that extraction, then running the rest of the, the extract through a supercritical extraction, where you are removing more of those plant waxes, lipids, then reintegrating the terpenes with the cannabinoid-rich raw co2 and then winterizing it so that you are removing the plant waxes and not, not steam distilling it any further. And so what you are trying to retain then is the largest possible concentration, the widest range of cannabinoids and terpenes mostly that are still safe to heat and inhale. So that would be something like a full spectrum vape pen or concentrate for example.
Wayne: Would that capture like the flavonoids and esters as well?
Emma: Probably not, because esters are incredibly volatile, and also they have - esters have slight solubility in water and flavonoids are also water soluble, and so you probably will not be able to capture those in the full spectrum extraction methodology that would be required of a smokeable or or something that's being inhaled. But you would absolutely be able to capture flavonoids and maybe even some esters in a in something like a FECO or or a tincture preparation.
Wayne: So is there any way for a consumer or budtenders as they're looking at their products, to really tell on the label kind of this full spectrum - the quality of a full spectrum discussion? Is that difficult to do right now?
Emma: It is difficult to do. For one if you see something that's, that says full spectrum distillate, it's not full spectrum. Anything that is cannabis distillate or cannabis isolate - not full spectrum. However, there there are good companies who're not trying to market manipulatively. And if you ask them just like some questions, you'll be able to figure that out. And so if they do advertise as full spectrum, when say like, Oh, well, what solvent do you use? If they're running co2, then you can ask them, "Oh, do you employ some critical processing to to capture as many terpenes as possible?" They say yes or no to that question, that will also clue you in to, to their - to what they're producing. Now on the the ingestible end that - easy if you ask about the solvent, especially with FECO, it should be organic alcohol, organic sugar cane alcohol is the creme de la creme of solvents in that realm. And also just ask them if they're doing a low temp, long time extraction, and if you have those three things, then that is kind of like the magic combination for a full spectrum product.
Wayne: Got it. And on the full spectrum distillate, I've also seen strain specific distillate - Is there something they're doing where it's not really just distillate, just the THC or CBD, they gotta probably be doing something else to at least make that claim on the label. Is there something else going on with the distillate that that would kind of make them put that on the label the full spectrum piece or strain specific?
Emma: You can do a strain specific distillate, but you won't really be retaining anything that makes that strain unique, but you could still use it as marketing language. Let's say if you're running like a Jack Herer distillate and you're only using Jack Herer plant material, well then you have arrived at a strain specific distillate, and that helps you to market it better. And I mean, a company could be going even further to that include or add in botanically derived terpenes, such as terpinolene that's, that's commonly found in Jack Herer. However, that we - we know I'm not such a fan of adding in any botanically derived terpenes, especially if you're looking to heat and inhale because we don't quite know the effects on the lungs of that just yet. But as far as like a distillate being full spectrum, just not possible, not possible. I mean, you're running, typically a co2, you've already ran it through winterization. You already rotovaped it, so burned off the rest of the alcohol and then you're running it through something called fractionated distillation, which is actually removing some of the compounds from the other ones to arrive at a more cannabinoid rich product, and that's fine, a lot of people like to consume distillate. However, it's not full spectrum by any, by any means of the word at all. Because you are like, by definition fractionating off a subset of compounds from other compounds.
Wayne: Yeah. Around the vaping crisis I just saw this morning, the flavored ban, at least in Oregon here, they lifted it to allow the botanical terpenes now, so really interesting dynamic and well, we don't have to dive too deep into the vaping crisis. We did a two part series on that previously and some of the culprits that we really are concerned about vitamin E acetate, glycol, MCT oils, but it was so crazy to see them go after flavored, which didn't seem like it should have been the number one priority, botanical terpenes. And then, when it came to nicotine vaping, they lifted the ban in like two or three days, right away but left cannabis, and then now just today they also removed it for cannabis. Do you know anything behind the scenes of why they decided now to lift that ban or what might be going on there?
Emma: I think it's probably due to the very recent CDC report that came out, that did find vitamin E oil in most of the carts that were causing issue and so that's what I suspect is that, the ban - It was also blocked I believe by a group maybe an extraneous lobbying group - I saw the headline but didn't read the article. And, and so I think it was probably most likely motivated by the CDC report, the most recent one that came out and said, "Okay, actually we do think it is this vitamin E oil that is causing most of the problems as well as these all these other factors may be at play faulty hardware, synthetic cannabinoids, botanical terpenes, etc." But really the main cause for concern here seems to be oil.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah. And they haven't been able to specifically - or I don't know if they're doing studies on it right now around botanical terpenes. But without that hard evidence yet, they kind of reversed course. What about -so synthetic cannabinoids, are synthetic cannabinoids only made by growing them out of yeast or are there also different methods. Is there any potential to those? Or do you just think that's too much of a risk at this time? Or do you think that could end up being a safe alternative that's maybe lower cost or something like that?
Emma: My thoughts on synthetic cannabinoids are just - why? At this point, there is no reason to choose a synthetic cannabinoid at all over plant derived cannabinoid formulation. It's just much higher risk associated with it, we see a lot more side effects that are like not only uncomfortable but dangerous, like unhealthy causing people a multitude of issues. I unknowing - No, not unknowingly, I knowingly smoked a synthetic cannabinoid not knowing what it was necessarily, when I was in Israel, and it turned out to be the closest in molecular structure to bath salts. That's not, that's not good for you. It definitely did not perfect me any therapeutic value, there was no medicinal reason for me to consume that except to try to have a good time when I was in Israel. This was now almost 10 years ago. But like, I just don't I just don't see any argument at this point as to why people would choose synthetic cannabinoids over plant derived, you can make them in a lab, so they can be synthesized in a lab. I don't think that you only need to grow them from yeast. And so maybe it would allow for just like greater viability, greater access cheaper. However, if it's that much more risky to consume it, not worth it.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah. And as things scale, I mean, we're really getting the cost of production and growing down, so access is becoming more available. And then, you know, heaven forbid, one day they actually allow medical insurance to cover cannabis for medical patients. I mean, you can think of any other pharmaceutical if you actually pay for what that costs, nobody would be able to afford any of their medications. Cannabis is the only one people are actually paying 100% of the cost of it. So yeah, that's it - is that what K2, and like Spice, and some of those legal things - are those synthetic cannabinoids?
Emma: Yes, Spice definitely. Yeah. And it's called many different things. But really, it's like, just, I mean, it's just chemicals.
Wayne: It's a weird whack a mole game where, I've I've saw documentaries on it where they're, you know, they find a new one they make it illegal. So they changed this little molecule group now we have a new synthetic cannabinoid that's legal because the government doesn't know about it yet. And they roll that out and it's this is constantly like, looping battle. It's really strange. But um, and I see some companies really a lot of money - hundred million dollars up to $300 million raising, that are bio ag tech companies completely focused on synthetic cannabinoids. And so I mean, some people are putting real money behind it and just curious of where that will be or ends up being a dead end road or - Yes, yeah, interesting and scary at the same time.
Emma: Yes, definitely scary and much more in line with the, with the like pharmaceutical model - where I'm sure people are throwing big money at synthetic cannabinoids because it's easy to replicate and produce in high volume and just get out to as many people as possible. But again, it's not healthful. It's not, it doesn't - absolutely does not have the same therapeutic potential as cannabis. And even if it did, it - there would be so many more risks associated with its use.
Wayne: Yeah, when it comes down to it, it's still an isolate. And we just talked about isolates and their efficacy. And yeah, yeah, what - Here's another one from a user - or I keep saying user, listener question. Total cannabinoid percentage. So I see this on some it's definitely on lab results and people are putting it on labels now - is total cannabinoid percentage important at the consumer level, and if so, how does a budtender explain total cannabinoid, or is that something people should even be looking at?
Emma: So total cannabinoid percentage, it is the result on your certificate of analysis that is the total percentage of the cannabinoids that lab has tested for in that product or in that cannabis variety. And so it will include THC, THCV, CBD, CBDV, CBG, CBC - it will include all the cannabinoids at the lab has tested for. Total cannabinoid percentage, I've seen it used in dispensaries instead of THC percentage to either make consumers more enticed by a higher percentage, so they see something that's like oh my god 36% and are just, immediately want to purchase it because they're thinking in line with THC. And I think that that has two sides to it. One, it can be a little manipulative in getting consumers to think that they're looking at, at something that they're not actually looking at. Or it can help to move consumers away from this idea that THC is the only thing to look at. And I think that that is, there's good to that. And that's how I would explain it to a consumer if they asked. I would be - I would make sure to be very upfront in both signage as well as in verbal communication that this is a total cannabinoid percentage, it represents all of the cannabinoids at play here. It is not just THC, it's not just CBD, it's all of the minor ones that the lab is tested for as well. And that this can, this along with other data and this is this is where it comes in again to the more like full picture. This along with terpene data could be used to help identify maybe the intensity of the experience. But then again, we would need to look at the different types of cannabinoids. I mean if you are putting your total cannabinoid percentage there, and it's CBD dominant? Well, then you need to explain that to a consumer that, Oh, actually, there may not be as much psychotropic activity here, even though you're reading a 30% number, there may be 20% of that may be CBD. And so it wouldn't be that kind of like level of psychotropic activity that the consumer would expect by looking at that number. I've also heard of stories of consumers getting really upset when they read that number, and they think they're getting something and they're not. And so it, it has two sides to it. I think that there's pros and cons to putting that number out. One, it is helpful to move people away from the idea that THC is the only thing to look at and instead, initiates hopefully a conversation around the many different cannabinoids at play and what they can do for you, both isolated and when working together. But I mean that conversation is necessary. If you just put put out that number and you don't explain what that number means to a consumer - you don't really like take out the lab result and look at the different cannabinoids at play there - then you could be creating some very disgruntled customers.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, I mean, especially if that's the only number - I mean, if you're going to use that number, sounds like you've got to put the THC CBD everything right below it and those should all add up to your total cannabinoid number. But to put that singular number on there, yeah, we could definitely misleading. Yep, yeah. How do either you know budtenders, if they've got flower coming in. They want to understand their product selection, or consumer if they're looking to buy a certain type of flower they care about the brand, how it's grown, you know organic is - I don't wanna say a blanket term, but it can be used loosely. How do you understand the different levels of organic cultivation practices and what they might mean and are they all good are some better than others? You know, just some questions budtenders could use to kind of get a better understanding of that term and how people use it.
Emma: Sure. So we have an even further layer of complication beyond the many different organic strategies that growers can employ and what that means for the crop. We can't actually certify cannabis as USDA Organic, because that's a federal certification, and so that creates a problem in essence where we can't even use the word organic to describe these these organic practices, which is wild. And so instead what we have is third party certifiers who come in such as Clean Green Certified, Certified Kind, DM Pure Certified, that certifies cannabis grows on different levels of organic practices. So, in my investigation of these certifiers, Clean Green Certified seems to be like the bare minimum organics. So that is looking at the USDA certified organic program and saying, "Okay, this cannabis grow is fairly in line with that program. They're only using pesticides that have been deemed acceptable by the USDA." So there are pesticides that you can use and still be USDA certified organic. So that's important that it's - it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not using pesticides. And there are also different, just like methods of grow in terms of, "okay, you're using soil, what kind of interventions?". You can still spray things on your plant that would prevent pests again, while being organics that something such as neem oil or even growers use sulfur to get rid of pests and other pathogens and problems. Also, how are you - how are you getting your water? How are you refiltering your water, What does your water tests look like? Are you using compost teas, what kind of nutrient amendments are you using? Are you using bottled nutrients - so again, you can be organic and still use synthetic bottled nutrients that have been USDA Organic certified, this again would be kind of like the lowest of the low on the organic totem pole in my opinion. If you are using bottled nutrients, you're still spraying whether it be pesticides or neem oil or or whatever you're using, and and you are going with the more synthetic route. Then there is the minimalist organic style where you're not really spraying anything on, on your plants, you are using compost teas, so you're making your own compost and using that but not doing any any real more amendments beyond that. Maybe you're doing some Integrated Pest Management, where you are employing some beneficial bugs that help to eat the other nastier bugs that will cause you problems. That, that is more in line with again, minimalist organic where you are still stressing out your plant enough to produce a lot of cannabinoids and terpenes but you're not - you're not giving it any like nasty stuff or any stuff that could cause problems. Then there is what we call organic living soil and that is like in DM Pure sort of certification Dragonfly Earth Medicine certification. They are looking for more of like a holistic mindset. So how do you impact your ecosystem? What's your impact on your community? How do you give back to your community? Are you making not only your own compost teas but also your own amendments like fruit and flower ferments? Are you harvesting your own horsetail? Are you doing this sustainably? Are you using cover crops? Are you planting other plants around your cannabis plant? Are you growing outside? Are you planting directly into the earth? What does your energy consumption look like? That is kind of like the creme de la creme of or organics, something or a grow such as Green Source Gardens which is outdoor, Southern Oregon. They almost do like forest farming where they are incredible. I mean having the opportunity to tour their farm last September was amazing, with all of the strategies and the the biodynamic methods that they implement in terms of just the amount of diversity in the garden and the way that it is very like, low intervention. But also they are providing such wonderful, wonderful amendments. I mean, they have farm animals, they have farm animals, and they use the waste from the animals to fertilize, they use carbon sequestration, they employ Hugelkultur, they do a little bit of KNF farming. I mean, it's, it's wild. And so those are the kind of different levels of organics and when, when trying to figure it out from the growers who come in. I would simply ask them what their growing practices are, and have them describe it to you and see what they're using. If they are using - ask them if they're, what kind of nutrients they're employing. Ask them what kind of me minutes they're using ask them the medium that they grow in. Are they doing hydroponics? Are they doing cocoa? Are they doing soil? Ask them what they spray on their plants, ask them what their pest management plan looks like. Are they using beneficial bugs? Or are they using some more synthetic interventions? All of those are important questions to ask when trying to assess growing practices.
Wayne: Yeah, a lot of questions there too. Is the organic living soil to go to, you know, as best as possible and those examples, is it that hard to do? We're not very many people do it, or is it just that it's not so plug-and-play, and kind of easier to systematize and script what you might see from like, you know, an investor moving in there, just wants to get this thing up and running as fast as possible. Because I've heard some people say, it's actually not that much more costly. It's just the intent and focus you have to give to it to get your systems right, or is it really difficult to pull that off?
Emma: No, you're exactly right that it's just time commitment. I mean, you have to be at the farm all day, every day, you have to constantly be innovating on around like okay, a problem does arise how are you going to fix it, you can't just spray something on to it. Creating your own amendments, your own ferments harvesting your own horsetail and alfalfa and planting cover crops I mean, it is more than a full time job. And so the sweat equity associated with that is insane. And as the industry evolves, there are now like amazing machines that you can really like you said, systematically program a nutrient regimen for a huge grow and it will just do it for you. And so you don't need anybody to do it. It will just automatically trigger the, like the irrigation systems at a specific time etc. to continue feeding the plants. But you can only really do synthetics with that, you can't implement an organic living soil model with that kind of like, rigorous, like system management. And so it's a lot of time. It's a lot of effort. It's a huge commitment. And you really have to love it. You have to do it because you love it not because you want to make money.
Wayne: Right. And if you get that dialed in, could it potentially even be lower costs than kind of that synthetic, larger scale plug and play model?
Emma: Yes, because with organic living soil like that, what it comes down to is you're building and recycling your own soil. And so typically, for growers who grow in soil who don't do this, they are trucking in loads of soil every season, if they're indoor, to be able to grow and whereas like organic living soil, they don't do that, they build and recycle their soil every year. And so it is a way to like minimize waste. It's really a way to create this closed loop ecosystem. Regenerative is a word that's thrown around a lot, where you are like regenerating resources. You're just, you're not continuing to just consume, consume consume, which will be more cost effectively in the long run.
Wayne: Can you do that organic living soil indoors as well? And not just outdoor?
Emma: Yes, yeah. There are people who do organic living soil indoor, as well as greenhouse.
Wayne: Yeah, just - if a grower's listening, and you're taking those approaches. I mean, there's so many questions to answer. And a lot of times, you know, we're trying to inform budtenders or consumers what questions to ask, but there's so much there. If you're not in it, you don't even really know what to ask. Something we did on our website that I would recommend any grower taking these approaches do is you know, an FAQ video series where you're sitting down asking these questions and answering them for the, for the consumer - can be really powerful to get, because it's hard for a farm to brand. Now you're relying on the budtenders to then translate that over. It can be really difficult to do and you can't fit all that on a label either, but some way to document all those things and help explain that to consumers because it's huge. I mean, there's so much potential there. But it's hard to translate to the end consumer that's going to want to pay a little more premium or really care of, it's just hard to communicate that.
Emma: Yeah, definitely. And it will help you, growers, stand out if you are like, proactively having those conversations with people in the community and really, hopefully, like the whole point and the whole goal is to try to get people to care. That's important, is to raise the level of consciousness around what we consume. Where if you are conscious about purchasing organic food, well then you better be conscious about purchasing cannabis that's grown in an organic modality, you are heating this thing. Pesticides that are fine and safe for digestion are not fine and safe when they are heated and inhaled. Myclobutanil is the kind of superstar that world, of turning into cyanide when you heat and inhale it and so, And it is it is an important important conversation needs to be had. And I do believe that as the industry evolves, that we will have more conscious consumers and people who are like, Oh, I actually need to care about this. This is important.
Wayne: Yeah. I wanted, this next listener question will kind of transition us over into the concentrate side of things. They asked, does live resin always equal full spectrum?
Emma: So short answer is no, but let me explain what live resin is. So live resin is typically a BHO extraction, you're using butane as your solvent, but it is plant material that is either fresh - so it is freshly harvested. And you also are typically using whole plants. So you're using stem, stalks, leaves, flower - and you're not, it's not cured, it's not dried, it's not cured, it is fresh. Or it is fresh and then Flash frozen, so you have something that has been - kind of its freshness has been preserved by being frozen, and then it thaws and it goes into extraction, BHO extraction. The reason why it's not always full spectrum is that you are still using typically a hydrocarbon solvent that is pulling out higher concentration of cannabinoids and yes, you will get more terpenes because your plant material is fresh, it hasn't been dried. But you still are using that hydrocarbon solvent that is very very selective in what it pulls out. And so it's not going to grab as many of those minor terpenes.
Wayne: And then something I've seen more recently, you know live resin initially was really got popular and for that thought reason, that it's always full spectrum and more so than maybe other concentrates or extracts. And then recently I started seeing cured resin is well - what's the difference between Live resin and cured resin?
Emma: Hmm. So that to me suggests that the plant material has been cured, it has undergone the curing process, which is the process of drying it and and really aging it in essence. And I would think that if they're specifying that it's cured resin then you're still using whole plants, you're still using leaves, stalks, stems as well as flower.
Wayne: Okay, so that's accurate, not live. And then I thought resin was pressed - is that rosin? That's pressed? (Yes) They're so close!
Emma: Yeah. I know, rosin is - either you can have it be the dried cured cannabis flower, the buds, or you can have it be like keif, or dry sift. And you just press it, press it with heat and pressure, and you get this like bubbly goop that is rosin that then can be smoked.
Wayne: Yeah. So they're not using any solvents. Can you put rosin into a vape pen or does it not work when you transfer it over there?
Emma: You can put rosin into a vape pen, I have seen some some rosin vape pens out there. It is rather goopy. So you may have a higher risk of cartridge failure, just if it gets clogged. But it definitely can be heated and, and inhaled.
Wayne: Got it. So moving over to concentrates, there's a long list and I think we you know, some listeners have asked about the differences between concentrates or different, you know, quality, are they all full spectrum, which ones are which ones aren't. There's a lot of them. So I'm not sure how we want to dive into it. We could start going through them, or is there a way you categorize groups of concentrates together that kind of helps simplify it a little more?
Emma: Yes. So I recommend for all of the budtenders and people out there who are incredibly confused by the overwhelming world of concentrates, especially because new like concentrates come out every day, it seems like. Where we had like, okay we had wax and shatter in the BHO world and now all the sudden we have like, terp sauce and diamonds, and glitter and - it's wild, but the way that I categorize it to make it simpler is - what solvent are we using? So, you typically have in the, the concentrate world, you have four categories, based again on solvent. And solvent is the liquid or gas that you are using to extract your compounds.
And you need, you need a solvent except in the arena of solventless, which is a category, but you have hydrocarbon solvents, which are butane, propane - BHO or PHO is really what you'll see, and there you are using hydrocarbon solvent such as butane, and you are using that plus heat and pressure to extract compounds. Hydrocarbons almonds are incredibly selective as I've said now I feel like multiple times throughout this episode, and so they are really only pulling out your cannabinoids and terpenes, they are leaving behind all of your plant material. They're leaving behind anything that's water soluble, they are only pulling out cannabinoids and terpenes. And for this reason, the products that fall under the umbrella of BHO and PHO have high cannabinoid concentrations. Yes, they may have some terpenes. But really, it's all about the cannabinoids here and what falls under BHO and PHO is - shatter, wax, crumble, there is even like people call some stuff hash or glue and really what that comes - snap and pull - really what that comes down to, those terms, are just the consistency of the end product. So shatter is more of like a pane of glass in essence where you could shatter it. Whereas snap and pull is something a little bit stickier, almost like gum, chewed gum. Wax is a little bit goopier, crumble is crumblier, and these consistencies are just dependent on your specific extraction methodology, your time, your temperature, etc. So that's the hydrocarbon solvent lane. And live resin, for example, typically falls under hydrocarbon solvents. It is a type of hydrocarbon extraction where just the plant material that you're using is high grade fresh or flash frozen.
Now, second category is CO2 extracts. So CO2 extracts, you are using a co2 gas as your solvent and the co2 gas goes into liquid form and you are applying heat and pressure in order to extract out your cannabinoids and terpenes. CO2 is a little less selective than hydrocarbons. So you will also pull out plant waxes and lipids and some chlorophyll even, but you will retain more terpenes. With co2 extraction, we have subcritical or super critical. Subcritical, you are running at a lower temperature for a longer amount of time, whereas supercritical, you are running at a higher temperature for a shorter amount of time. Also subcritical, lower pressure, supercritical, higher pressure. And so what co2 manufacturers do, if they are trying to formulate with full spectrum, is that they run the plant material through a subcritical extraction first where they're able to capture way more terpenes than they would in the supercritical, they remove those terpenes from the rest of the extract and then they run that remaining extract through a supercritical, remove more of the plant waxes and lipids, and then they re-integrate the terpenes with the supercritical extraction. Then it goes through a winterization process where they wash it in alcohol and the plant waxes and lipids are removed in the alcohol. And then the remaining, the remaining concentrate mixture which will have some residual alcohol has to go through a rotovape process, where the residual alcohol is burned off at a low temperature, it looks like a big glass ball that rotates in a vacuum in a warm water bath and that allows the alcohol to go right out through the vacuum and what you're left with is a co2 extract with a range of cannabinoids and terpenes, and the co2 extract will most likely be in vape pens. You may also see it on its own as like little concentrates or extract things that you're able to dab but most of the time it'll be in vape pens.
Wayne: And that one, is the reason the - when you wash it in alcohol to winterize it to remove the lipids and waxes, why doesn't it also take the cannabinoids and terpenes with it, because alcohol is a non selective solvent that would pull other things?
Emma: Because you are doing it for a relatively shorter amount of time. And the cannabinoids and the terpenes they prefer the co2 much more than they would prefer the alcohol, and so co2 holds them stronger than the alcohol would. (Cool) Yeah, so that's co2 zone. You can also use co2 extract in edibles, so it's its main or a lot of edible makers use co2 extract, especially chocolates or gummies or candies, to be able to just like provide a flavorless, odorless experience in your edible. You can also take the refinement of the co2 extract further, so you can take the then winterized co2 extract, and put it through fractional distillation where you're removing out the terpenes and you are selecting for a small range of cannabinoids in high concentration. So that's what we get distillate for example. And then you could take that distillate even further and isolate out a single cannabinoid and we see this in THC or CBD isolate as well.
Wayne: With the co2 and doing that next, last stage of fractional distillation. It sounds like the co2 after all those steps is a quality oil - do you only do that fractional distillation if you're starting with like low quality strains and input, is that why you would do that? Or is there another reason?
Emma: Yep, that, that is a good reason why - to have like low grade source material, is why you would go to a distillation. Also again, if you are trying to really make it as like, colorless flavorless, odorless as possible with the highest cannabinoid concentrations possible, distillate will produce much higher cannabinoid concentrations than like a raw co2 extract or winterized co2 extract.
Wayne: Got it. Okay, cool.
Emma: Then our third category is alcohol. So with Alcohol that's where you get like FECO, that's where you get RSO style cannabis oil. That's where you get tinctures, alcohol is the least selective solvent. So it's not, it's not really like leaving much behind. You combine your plant material with alcohol and you heat it at a very low temp or not at all. And you just let it sit for a really really long time and that will pull out cannabinoids, terpenes, flavonoids, phytonutrients, polyphenols, etc. And that's where again, you get like, FECO, you get tinctures, you get something that is meant to ingest. You do not want to run an alcohol extraction and then smoke that, you don't want to smoke alcohol, that's just not - not okay. And so that is the the third category of solvent extractions.
Then we have our solventless category, which is our fourth and so, with solventless extractions, you are not necessarily using a solvent to pull out the cannabinoids and terpenes. You have stuff like bubble hash here, dry sift, rosin. So bubble hash or ice hash, you can technically argue it uses ice water is a solvent. However really what it uses is agitation to be able to break off the trichomes. And actually, like capture a concentrated amount of cannabinoids and terpenes - you're not using any heat, you're not using any pressure, what you're doing is you're taking plant material, you're submerging it in ice water and then you are rigorously agitating it and this will allow for the trichomes to actually break off from the plant material because the plant material will favor the, the water as its polar, whereas the trichomes are non polar, and so it will break - the trichomes will break off in the agitation and settle to the bottom of the barrel, where it will create this like really wet sandy mixture that then you lay out, you dry, you sift, and then what you get is bubble hash or ice house. Where it is a high concentration of cannabinoids, terpenes, and you're able to add that to a bowl of flower. If you sift it through different sized micron screens, you will get like what's called full melt quality, where you'll actually be able to dab it as well. You can dab ice hash if it is full melt. You also have dry sift, which I mean if anybody has a four piece grinder at home, you have dry sift. Another popular term for dry sift is keif. And so it is just plant material that has been sifted through over a very, very fine micron screen. And you could pop that onto a bowl of flower for added cannabinoid potency. You then have rosin which is the the last one which we've already mentioned, which is just using heat and pressure, but no solvent, to achieve an extract or concentrate.
Wayne: Got it. Yeah, those four categories really help to simplify it versus I think the list I made of different names was like 20 or maybe even more. I did have a question on kind of the butter and coconut oil side, actually specifically butter. So we use Canna-butter here. And one thing we've been kind of going back and forth on trying to figure out is should we use ghee or regular butter. So ghee is you know, basically almost 100% butter and the regular butter you get is around 15 to 20% water. But after our conversation, if you use regular butter and it's got some water content in it during that infusion process, could that actually help pull out some of these other beneficial compounds that ghee might not pull out because it doesn't have that water content?
Emma: Yes, theoretically for sure. I think on the the kind of con side of that you will get greater likelihood for green pigmentation and also like the green taste, which is like the plant material taste because you are pulling out those phytonutrients. Where with ghee, for people who are wanting to produce a less like cannabis tasting infusion, they've had more success with the ghee than butter for that reason because there isn't that water that's pulling out the phytonutrients.
Wayne: Right, okay, makes sense.
Emma: Yes. But that also brings up a good point, that there is kind of a fifth category to this, where you won't necessarily see sold in stores, but the fat infusions that you can make at home yourself or the fat infusions that are just responsible for many of the edibles on the market. Such as butter, olive oil, canola oil, coconut oil, any - any fat combined with plant material, heated and left to sit for a long period of time, will also create an an infusion that could be consumed - not heated and inhaled, but...
Wayne: Right - don't smoke butter, do not smoke butter. Where does glycerin fall into that?
Emma: Oh, so glycerin is is most commonly used in tincture world, and it is sweeter tasting than alcohol or oil which is why people go for it. Glycerin you can pull out some more like plant material, some more phytonutrients, polyphenols, it's a really simple compound that's colorless odorless but quite viscous and and does act as a good solvent potentially and is a good option for people again who just don't don't like the taste of alcohol or even just straight oil in their tincture, but I haven't seen like a glycerin infusion in anything else besides a tincture world.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah I was wondering if that - I mean it's kind of sweeter could, sounds like be easily used an edible potentially as well?
Emma: Yeah, no, though I don't really know any edibles that are formulated with glycerin infusions.
Wayne: Yeah. Awesome. Well last question I wanted to end on is, you know, you have Eminent Consulting, so you consult with different businesses and you know, highly focused on the science of cannabis. And I know we've been talking you've recently been traveling, you mentioned Israel, recently got back from Italy. I just want to end on if, you know, ground cannabis, any recent discoveries or anything that's really got you excited about the industry or what's going on with the science of cannabis or anything like that?
Emma: So I mean, all the new states definitely always make me excited. So to follow and work with what's happening in Michigan, Illinois, even have had the opportunity to connect with people in Wisconsin who are really trying to champion some legislative efforts there, which has been really exciting, so always on the front of just like industry development, and globally as well having just been in Italy and they don't have any public access program yet, not even medical, but they are slowly but surely coming around and, and really feeling out the hemp industry. As far as the science, I've seen a lot of focus on research regarding mental health. And that is exciting to me, since that is such an area where I mean, Western medicine doesn't really have much of a good solution for people who are struggling, struggling with issues such as anxiety, depression, OCD, even psychotic disorders. And even in every, almost every day, I searched just like Google Scholar to see what the latest research has been published on cannabis. And by far and wide recently, it's been on depression and psychosis. And of course, the this kind of research is being funded because there are institutions that want to point to cannabis and say, "oh, it causes these things. It's dangerous." However, what some of the findings have been, has been really like hopeful and dramatic for people who are able to implement cannabis as a way to decrease their dose of common pharmaceuticals associated with anxiety. Depression such as SSRIs, or antidepressants in general, and looking even at the potential for CBD to help in psychotic disorders, that that's been really exciting to see. And I'm definitely excited for, for more of that to, to come out.
Wayne: Around those, a thing I've heard in the past is when it's, the study is motivated for a specific agenda, they're kind of looking for a certain result, and I've heard those studies being tossed out or buried and not released because the results didn't go with what they wanted them to say. Is that kind of still the case in the scientific industry, or if you do one of these studies, do you have to, you know, make the results available regardless if they don't agree with what you wanted them to say?
Emma: So, it is still the case that research will kind of be buried or just not publish if it's not in line with the financial interests, which sucks. I mean, that's the opposite of science I think it's still why a lot of people in this day and age, and this is kind of a recent development as far as the turn of the millennium, where people are mistrusting science. Where before it was like, oh, a scientist said it, oh, a doctor said it, it must be true. Whereas now people are, rightfully so, conducting more of an investigation of like, "Oh, well, where's the money trail? Who's actually funding this? Why are these results being published in this way? Why is, why is this data being presented?" etc. And it's a failure of our research system. And it really is a failure of the way that our system is set up to favor profits over information that could actually help people.
Wayne: Yeah, yep, yep. At the end of the day, scientists or doctor, they're still coming from a person and people are flawed and we've got our own issues. So yeah. Last two questions. As we wrap up, number one, any projects or requests that you want to let listeners know about? And then number two, where can people find you?
Emma: Yes. So right now I am kind of like fully booked with travel through through 2019. But there may be an exciting new class that's going to be published on a wonderful new platform that actually is a marketplace for many different types of learning for cannabis. So I'm really excited about that where you can not only take my science courses but also take courses on like cannabis branding or cannabis law, or whatever interests you so look out for that announcement. It should be coming soon in December. But besides that, follow me on Instagram, @echasen, or Eminent Consulting, and then as always, you can check out my website eminentconsultingfirm.com to get a little bit of a better idea about, about what I do or if you have any questions please don't hesitate to get in touch.
Wayne: Awesome. Yeah, let us know on the platforms up, platform is up we'll definitely let listeners know. (Awesome.) Great, thank you for coming on today, Emma. We covered a lot of great stuff in this one. So I didn't want to break this into two parts.
Emma: Yeah, I mean two hours seems to be our way at this point.
Wayne: Yeah. Thank you have amazing weekend.
Emma: Thanks so much Wayne. Always a pleasure.