Wayne Schwind, Host: Joining us today is Emma Chasen, educator and - cannabis educator and founder of eminent consulting. We've had you on quite a few times Emma, and we've done some cannabis 101 science episodes. And then few, maybe a month or two ago we did 301. And so on this one, we're going to go deep into terpenes, do a deep dive there, which we've gotten a lot of listeners are interested in terpenes. So excited to have you on and I know we can spend at least an hour, maybe more on just going to terpene. So thanks for taking the time again.
Emma Chasen, Guest: Of course, always, always excited to be here with you, Wayne, and yeah, to talk about terpenes today one of my favorite topics.
Wayne: Definitely. And I mentioned some of our other episodes we did previously in the intro, if listeners want to go back and check that out first because that those really lay a good foundation for what we're going to talk about today. And we briefly discussed or some in depth on terpenes and past episodes. But there's just so much interesting, you know, new studies information around terpenes, the vaping scare. How do they play into that - but starting off, just to kind of get listeners back up to speed again, just starting off with some basics, you know, what are terpenes? Why are we interested in them? And just I guess we'll start with a simple definition.
Emma: Sure. So terpenes are teeny tiny, fat soluble compounds that are extraordinarily volatile, meaning that they're easily degraded by heat. They are found in almost all plants, including some insects and they not only provide the aroma or the smell of the plant material, but they also have some associated physiological and therapeutic properties in regards to their consumption and they are abundantly found in cannabis and they have become quite a hot topic in the cannabis industry as many consumers now and industry professionals look to incorporate terpenes into their products.
Wayne: I read somewhere over the largest classic class of natural compounds or products are terpenes I think over 75,000 different terpenes across the entire plant kingdom have been found. What's you know, natural is a word we see on packaging often. What does that mean exactly a natural compound or product? And I see every terpene as kind of marketed as organic. Are all terpenes just organic naturally, I guess?
Emma: So this brings up a really good point more in line I guess with manipulative marketing. We've seen a lot of food be labeled as natural foods, meaning that the compound can just be found in nature. And in regards to your question around terpenes being organic, they are a class of organic compounds. That does not mean that they necessarily fall under the USDA Organic certification where they have been produced in line with the specificity of that organic certification but they are a class of organic compounds and they are as you mentioned, abundantly found in nature almost all plants and even some insects do have terpenes in their matrix.
Wayne: And I found this was another thing I heard a while ago is interesting for, you know, drug sniffing dogs he said the terpenes are responsible for the aromatic effects in the smell of cannabis. You know, THC isolate is a product I've seen in you know, legalized markets and it's like 99.9% pure THC, it's almost like a white powder. But drug sniffing dogs wouldn't actually be able to identify or smell THC, which is, you know, the main compound for that high or euphoric effects. So if you remove all the terpenes I mean, that's what drug sniffing dogs are looking for. Not actual cannabinoids from the cannabis. That's accurate?
Emma: Yes, and drug sniffing dogs have been particularly trained to identify the singular terpene caryophyllene oxide, and so they're specifically looking for that terpene. And so, yes, isolated compounds of THC drug sniffing dogs won't necessarily pick that up because that terpene is not present. And even if you do kind of what I call Frankenstein formulations where you put a bunch of isolates together and you do put some of these isolated terpenes in with your isolated cannabinoids, if caryophyllene oxide is not in there, then the likelihood of drug sniffing dogs identifying your product is quite low, actually.
Wayne: Wow, so even a strain that was grown without any caryophyllene, is the oxide - is the caryophyllene oxide a terpene that happens naturally in cannabis or is that kind of like after it dried or cured or something but a strain without that? I mean, could be like a normal cannabis strain and the drug sniffing dogs wouldn't be able to detect it.
Emma: Yes, yes. Caryophyllene oxide does show up in the plant material of cannabis. We often see beta caryophyllene as the terpene that comes up rather than the caryophyllene oxide. However, from just the various lab results and certificates of analysis that I've seen from varieties, if you do have beta caryophyllene you most likely have a little bit of caryophyllene oxide in there. But just as you said, if you have a variety that does not contain either of those compounds, then again, the likelihood that drug sniffing dogs will pick it up is very low.
Wayne: Now how many terpenes are found in cannabis specifically? And is there a group - like is it 10, 20, 30 that are normally the most common? Because I think a very high number has been found in cannabis but you know buying strains from stores. It doesn't seem as diverse with that many different terpenes available.
Emma: Yes. So we are in the hundreds now of the amount of identified terpenes in the cannabis matrix. I believe that we are over 200 identified at this point. However, there are a certain subset that do show up consistently in dominant concentration in various varieties. Just generally speaking, we have two types of terpenes that we've seen in cannabis - monoterpenes versus sesquiterpenes. And all - the biggest differentiating factor there between those two classes of terpenes are in their size whereas monoterpenes have typically to isoprene units; so that is an organic structure that forms a chain in the terpene chemical structure and sesquiterpenes have more than two isoprene units in their chain so they're just a little bit bigger, a little bit more complex from an organic chemistry standpoint. And in cannabis, generally there are way more monoterpenes then there are sesquiterpenes.
Wayne: Okay. Is, you know thinking of effects from different terpenes from monoterpenes to sesquiterpenes, is there a difference in how they then would interact in the body, is one more desirable over the other?
Emma: So each individual terpene, it seems, has their own subset of associated properties. For example, though Myrcene which is one of the most common terpenes found in cannabis varieties, it is a monoterpene. And while it does have a range of therapeutic properties, it does not come close to the range of therapeutic properties from the most common sesquiterpene, which is beta caryophyllene and beta caryophyllene specifically has such a large range of diverse therapeutic properties because it can engage our ECS by binding to the main binding site of our CB2 receptors, which our major cannabinoids can even do. However, we can look at another sesquiterpenes such as humulene, which is just the isomer of beta caryophyllene. So it has the same chemical formula. However, it's arranged in space differently and that compound doesn't really have any physiological, therapeutic properties from the standpoint of human consumption, it does provide the plant with a lot of protection from fungus and pests and pathogens, but it doesn't have that same diverse range of therapeutic properties. So my point is that really individual terpenes have their associated therapeutic properties and physiological mechanisms, and it doesn't quite seem to differentiate between the monoterpene versus sesquiterpene classification whether one group has just a greater aggregate of therapeutic action compared to another.
Wayne: Okay. Thinking of, you know, the effects around terpenes. And I think as you know, consumers, if you're trying to buy a product for yourself, and you know, looking for different effects, regardless of what that is, or, you know, product companies that are looking at different terpenes or different strains, I think, you know, getting into the individual terpenes can be really difficult and would need a couple hours on its own to dive into each one and the pros and the cons. But a big thing is, you know, everybody's body is different and may interact differently. Some people have positive experiences with certain terpenes while someone else might have the opposite. Does it seem like most terpenes, can we make a general classification that you know, this terpene will make 80% of people feel this way? Or kind of have this effect with them? Or 90% of people? Or is it really, do we not have a lot of information? Is it kind of experimenting right now to figure out how an individual is actually going to interact with a specific terpene or, you know, now we're talking about profiles or multiple terpenes at once. It gets really complex really quickly. How much do we know around that and what each terpene might do for somebody?
Emma: At this point, we do need way more research to elucidate the specific terpenes therapeutic mechanisms across human consumption, we have never really consumed terpenes in such high concentrations before, the way that we typically consume terpenes is through our olfactory glands, meaning that we just smell them. This can be in the distillation of essential oils, which has only seen a rise in the last couple of decades, or even in the smell of plant material. With cannabis, it's opening up a Pandora's box of consuming these compounds in such high concentrations, whether that be via oral ingestion or heat and inhalation, and that has never happened before. In the research that we do have around terpenes, it's looking at animal models. So typically, mice and rats are being used to elucidate the isolated properties or potential of, of these compounds and human models are quite different than animal models in some cases. I mean, it gives us a kind of landscape to play with, but it's like having the corners of the puzzle without necessarily the whole middle picture. So it's still quite fuzzy in regards to what it will do for one person over another or even how it will interact with the many other hundreds of compounds in the cannabis matrix, because again, we're just looking at the isolated therapeutic properties of each individual terpene. And at this point, we only have anecdotal experimentation to go off of.
Wayne: Right, so they could look at an isolated terpene and say, you know, this one potentially doesn't look like it has any therapeutic benefits. There might not be any safety concerns to it, but it might be inert on its own. But if you put that in combination with cannabinoids or three of these other terpenes, it may then have some kind of interaction or do something which is really hard to classify, I guess and measure something like that.
Emma: Yes, and my favorite example of this is the terpene terpinolene, where scientists did inundate rats with terpinolene. And it exhibited a decrease in muscle motility, which led the research scientists to publish findings that terpinolene on its own is a sedative. However, this directly contradicts the aggregate anecdotal evidence that we have from the cannabis community, where cultivars or varieties that are high in terpinolene cause stimulation and cerebral focus and an increase in muscle motility. And so that has made research scientists take a step back and say, okay, terpinolene and THC together may actually be causing stimulation, the THC may actually be inverting that response from the terpinolene due to acetylcholine esterase inhibition, which is an enzyme in our brains that regulates quite a lot of functioning. And so that's just one example of the way in which we need that that broader research looking at the interactivity between these compounds because it may actually flip the script on what the the physiological mechanism becomes.
Wayne: And I think this is the right term like THC is but is it biphasic effect where at a lower dose, it has a certain effect, but at a much higher dose, it could have the opposite effect. Is that the right term?
Emma: Yes, the biphasic dose response curve is something that we see in cannabis where each person has their own unique threshold dose. And that can differ per consumption method. And so somebody who is at that threshold dose, below that threshold dose with an increase in the dose of THC or cannabis in general, they can experience an increased therapeutic benefit as well as an increased benefit in regards to mood experience. But above that threshold dose, they may experience a decrease in therapeutic benefit as well as a decrease In just the general mood of the experience.
Wayne: And that - so then that does apply to terpenes, potentially as well?
Emma: Definitely. And again, we don't really know what these terpenes are doing to our body when we do consume them in such high concentrations, specifically in concentrates and extracts.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah, mix it - And that's where the dose is so critical. I mean, we all know of THC over-consuming can be a really bad experience for a lot of people. If the same applies to terpenes. Or you know, coffee as an analogy, too much caffeine, you get the jitters. It's like the opposite effects you want. Yeah, getting the right doses is really critical and difficult right now for people to figure out what that is, and measure it. Something you always hear is you know, if a product doesn't have terpenes on the label, or you're not really sure familiar with which ones work for you, it's "the nose knows". So it's - it's kind of this guideline of, smell it and your intuition will tell you kind of if your body will react well to it. Or if you kind of have this unpleasant feeling from it, it's probably not something you'd like to consume. Do we know what's going on there with "the nose knows"? Is there any science or how our intuition is telling us something maybe about this strain versus that strain because of their different terpene profiles?
Emma: So "the nose knows" is a colloquialism I'll say in the community, definitely not backed by hard science and where it comes from is that all terpenes to carry their own aroma. And so the, the thought behind this is okay, if there is not data on that particular variety or that particular batch in regards to the dominant terpenes that are at play, then smell it, see if your body responds positively to it, and then that will most likely lead you to have a good experience if you consume it. Unfortunately, that is not the case. For some people, sometimes it works but again, I'll take the the terpene terpinolene as an example, whereas it has quite a delicious in my opinion, Pine Sol, citrus, diesel, very sharp aroma. It's found dominantly often in variety such as Super Silver Haze, Jack Herer, Dutch Treat. But that terpene in particular, I think is the most polarizing in regards to people who love it or people who have a really bad experience with it. But I have never met somebody who really hated that smell. Most people gravitate towards that smell. They like it, they want to purchase it, but then they could have a really negative experience where it becomes too cerebrally stimulating and they just kind of get trapped inside their own head. And so, like we - we may like the smell of something, but that doesn't mean that again, consuming it via inhalation or ingestion is necessarily going to produce a positive results for us.
Wayne: Yeah, it's interesting. So that's almost so - I guess a myth, then the nose knows or basing off that.
Emma: Yeah, I mean, I, I think that it's a fun idea, right to be able to say, oh well smell, smell this variety, see which one you're attracted to see which one you're drawn to and then purchase that and see if you like it. However, I think that we need to be careful of saying that that is science that's not backed by hard science. That is something that that is more of a fun experimental tool where if people are going to use that because they don't have that terpene data - to me, that's okay. However, it needs to be like also included with some language around microdosing or making sure that maybe they consume it via vaporization. So they can really get the essence of that terpene, they take one hit or one pull and they wait 10 minutes before they consume more. I'd say that that also needs to be coupled with that, that nose knows or even if you do have the terpene data, that advice should be included anytime somebody consumes cannabis, in my opinion, especially if it's a new user.
Wayne: Yeah, new users, maybe if someone has a terpene palette, and they're very familiar and able to identify specific terpenes and they know what they like, they can go off that smell a little more, much more accurately, but for a brand new user, or even an intermediate user, for the most part, I mean, terpenes are really difficult to identify. There's so many. But yeah, that's tricky. Interesting. Are there any other terpenes that are as divergent in predicting effects like terpinolene is? It does seem like 50/50 - some people really like that one and some people are really have the opposite effect, really don't like it at all. Is that kind of stand out on its own as being that much of a split in effects for people or are there other ones that might be like that as well?
Emma: That is the one that I have heard is the most polarizing just again from the kind of aggregate anecdotal. I've also started to hear of accounts of people who are not responding well to myrcene or myrcene is making some people feel physically ill or nauseous. Whereas other people really liked myrcene for its muscle relaxant effects. So that one I've also started to see the camp divide a little bit, but I'd say that terpinolene, by far and wide is definitely the most polarizing where, like you said, Wayne, 50% of people really love it. 50% of people really do not.
Wayne: Yeah. So kind of come back to the science around terpenes and effects and how we might start to be able to predict things. You know, using cannabis for an experience, any kind of medicinal use, you go in and talk to a doctor, they might run tests, you know, they're trying to really predict what product or what medication is going to work for you. And whether it's recreational use of cannabis or medicinal I think that still applies. How or where are we now? Or maybe what needs to be done as far as trying to get a better handle on different terpenes and effects? And, you know, it's like we talked about Western medicine trying to isolate the singular molecule and test it - doesn't work as it interacts with other terpenes, other cannabinoids. Is there a different way to approach the science? You know, I've heard consumer science or surveys or big data being used. Where are we at now? And what would that landscape look like if as we get closer to I guess, trying to achieve that?
Emma: There is definitely a different way to be able to conduct this kind of research to provide some better results in regards to whole plant formulations. So the way in which terpenes interact with other compounds within the cannabis matrix, there is research being done with humans as well, which is a huge component that needs to happen in the research world and that's being done in Israel as well as in some countries in Europe. So that's exciting. Looking at people or populations with specific disorders and how cannabis responds to those disorders is going to be very helpful for the more medicinal side of things. I'd say that there's also some analytical data coming out aggregate anecdotal evidence that is being compiled and then statistically analyzed to be able to show, Okay, THC in combination with limonene and nerolidol is a great anxiolytic for example, for 75% of the population. That's not real data. That's just an example. And, and stuff like that is starting to come out. Because we have had now a few years in this industry, that that has created some self reporting tools to like apps to be able to better collect user experience. However, there's always going to be some heightened level of error in those kinds of reports or data because they are self reported. So there is bias in there, where it's not necessarily objective research. However, at least it paints a landscape of how people or the population is most likely responding to these different formulations. That definitely helps. And we are going to be seeing more of that I'm sure as we move forward and as this industry evolves, and I think that that coupled with the more rigorous scientific evidence coming out of places like Israel that is doing human clinical trials is going to also really help to supplement, to look at the the therapeutic range of properties for not only the terpenes, but also the cannabinoids and how they work together.
Wayne: For this next question I'm going to go through if listeners are interested, there's an article from cannabis business times it's titled "not all terpenes are created equal." If you Google that you can find it and it's really good information that dives into some of the stuff we're talking about. But I was also curious as we dive into kind of safety concerns, vaping crisis has been a big thing. But who's driving right now the research behind terpenes in the studies? Because one thing I saw in that article, it said 2002 sales for terpene patent-based pharmaceuticals was $12 billion. I mean, that's a huge, huge number. So terpenes, you know, we're interested in them in the cannabis industry, but I would imagine right now, all the research and stuff we're learning is being driven from outside of the cannabis industry. Is that accurate?
Emma: Yes. And that is most likely due to cost, as well as the patents that do exist on isolated compounds and the pharmaceutical potential to run a very small study, research study, it takes about a quarter of a million dollars, and so you need to have quite a bit of capital in order to run these research studies. And unfortunately, the cannabis industry, the people handling the plant, the people who are boots on the ground, do not have that kind of capital - more often than not - to put to research studies. And so we do see outside pharmaceutical groups who are conducting this kind of research.
Wayne: I've seen some cannabis companies partner with universities, is that a strategy or an approach that, you know, I don't know if the university covers the costs of the study, but is there something there where some cannabis companies are leading some of these studies with in partnership?
Emma: Yes, and that that is an approach however, oftentimes, the university does not cover the cost of the research study. And so again, the company has to be very well-capitalized. We also see a very few and far between in the United States research grants being allocated. Dr. Sue Sisley is a leading cannabis researcher as well as a medical doctor who is doing research on cannabis in Arizona specifically looking at the PTSD population. So there are some people who are doing that. There is some federally funded research that the cannabis comes through, I believe it's the University of Mississippi, but I have heard a lot of complaints in regards to the quality of that cannabis being used for research where it's been molded or it's older, it's dry, where there's not actual like, flower on the shelf, it comes ground up, and you have to kind of use it in that form. So that can be a frustrating limitation on research. And there are other people who are doing research on cannabinoids, terpenes, the isolated properties of such, but the way that you really get funding for cannabis research still, is that you have to be looking for a negative outcome. And so that can also be frustrating for people where the research that is getting funded is looking at the negative effects of THC or the negative effects of CBD or the negative effects of these terpenes. Whereas really we need more data on the therapeutic potential of these compounds, not only on the negative effects of them.
Wayne: So it's still stuck in the kind of war on drugs culture, where if you're going to say I'm going to study why cannabis is bad, you could potentially get funding but if you say I'm going to study how cannabis might be able to help with PTSD, even right now, there's still, that's not viewed as favorable or interesting study as far as getting money for that.
Emma: Yes, yes, the federal government is still stuck in, in quite the archaic prohibition times. Where still a good percentage of the country as well. I mean, we are rapidly evolving out of that, which is exciting. I just saw a statistic that recently reported that over 90% of the US population supports cannabis legalization. And so there is quite a popularity in, in regards to the legalization generally, but as it stands in the eyes of the federal government, cannabis is still a schedule one substance, it is still one of the most dangerous substances on the planet, according to the federal government. And so that puts quite a limitation on federal funding for research.
Wayne: Yeah. You mentioned patents. And I know on the you know, cannabis growers are really concerned, you know, big companies big Ag Monsanto, around patenting cannabis or certain strains. And if somebody's going to take control and ownership of parts of the cannabis industry, how big of ownership or control? Around terpenes, are there actual patents on specific terpenes? Or is it more around how they process or extract a terpene? And what are those - Do you know what those patents look like or how they're controlled or protected?
Emma: The patents that I've seen mostly focus on extraction methodology or a formulation process or a dose delivery system. So there's a lot of patents on how we can consume these terpenes or the technology behind extraction versus the technology behind consumption. It is hard, if not impossible to patent, I believe, like a singular organic compound. And I'm not a patent lawyer. So big disclaimer here. But it is possible to patent a formulation or a technology that will lead to a specific formulation or even a compounding device where it is a technology that will allow specific compounding formulations to occur in a device where like you could press a few buttons, let's say in its simplest form, and it'll make you an extract that has 50% THC and 5% limonene and 1% myrcene or something like that. So there, there's also possibility for patents in that realm. There is possibility for patents on specific genetics of varieties as well, which would produce at least a range of similar compounds dependent on environmental factors. Its - patent law is a very tricky, weird place especially because it is the US Patent Office. So it is a federal program. And cannabis is, is in such a gray area there. So, so it's kind of looking outside of cannabis. It's looking to the compounds within cannabis. It's looking to the extraction formulation technology that can be used on cannabis, but it's not necessarily looking at cannabis specifically. And again, this is just from what I've seen and explored.
Wayne: Yeah, I mean, there's so much now in the public domain, thankfully, but if someone was the first to you know, officially extract cannabis with co2, I mean, they potentially could have ran and patented that process maybe or something like that, where something that's so common now everyone uses - it's just assume shared technology or use of something, you know, could be eventually controlled. And that might be something we see in the future that is scary.
Emma: Yeah, definitely. And I mean, looking at just the history of the way that American industries have gone, it doesn't really paint optimistic precedent for how the cannabis industry could go and just the general corporatization of this industry and the conglomerates at play who do have a lot of capital owning, like 95% of the industry in five different conglomerate corporations and, and since it is a wellness and a medicinal and a therapeutic industry, then you also have the FDA and the pharmaceutical companies involved and again, there is not a great history behind the way that pharmaceutical companies approach the commoditization of their products and so it is scary for a lot of people who have been doing this on the black market and the gray market and now in the legal market forever where it does - it is a legacy for them that it could all be taken away, is a very scary thought for those people.
Wayne: Yeah, you know and they say history repeats itself, and these industries and kind of culture and how they approach different categories or you know, verticals of industry. I think one thing for me I always that gives me the most hope is the internet, which we haven't really - in only last 10 years in a brand new industry you know, some tech industries you know, Bitcoin but without the internet haven't really built up like this, like cannabis is now and the way we can all communicate and it just feels like right now the level of transparency or getting away with things behind the scenes is just becoming much more difficult to do, so maybe that could hopefully have some play and maybe having a different future instead of history repeating itself, but, but it's a huge concern.
Emma: Mm hmm. Definitely.
Wayne: Let's dive into some of the different terpene categories as far as where they're derived from. And maybe after that we can talk about the vaping crisis. You've been getting a lot of questions on that and we have, and there's still some unknowns there. So I think it'd be good to tie it to that. But when we think about what terpenes are in your product, you know if it's cannabis, they're cannabis derived, if it's just a flower, cannabis derived terpenes. It's kind of the most natural original form or way to get terpenes and cannabinoids strictly from the flower but so many products now - edibles, extracts, concentrates. The categories that I think are the three are cannabis derived terpenes, food grade, or sorry, food derived terpenes or botanical terpenes, and then synthetic terpenes. I want to kind of briefly discuss each of those categories and something I wasn't really sure of - is synthetic terpenes actually really a category or those in the market or is that not much as far as being in products and things like that?
Emma: Sure. So, as you said, and I will echo the safest way to consume terpenes to get the full range of terpenes present in the original plant material is to consume that plant material, and I always recommend a dry flower vaporization where you are grinding up that flower, you're putting it into a vaporization device and it convection heats it at a variety of different temperatures. And if you plug that device onto the lowest heat setting and inhale, you will get a terpene-centric experience. That to me is the safest way to consume terpenes. However, since terpenes, are quite desirable from a market standpoint and especially a consumer demand, we are seeing the integration of these botannical derived terpenes, synthetic terpenes, cannabis derived terpenes into various concentrates and extracts and if we go back to the original definition of terpenes, terpenes are degraded by heat. And so, in the extraction process for many different types of cannabis products - concentrates, extracts - you have to go through some type of heat processing typically. There is also cold solvent extraction which we can get to, but for the most part most of your oils and dabs, shatter, BHO, PHO, co2, rosin, even that involves some kind of heat and pressure processing. And so a lot of terpenes will be degraded, therefore, there are now companies that have isolated quote unquote isolated terpenes that are terpene formulations that you can purchase and then re-add into your product. From the categories that you mentioned, Wayne, we do have terpenes that are derived from plants and fruits. So for example, limonene is a terpene abundantly found in cannabis but it's also abundantly found in the rinds of citrus fruits. And so we can use a process, typically steam or hydro distillation where we take out that limonene and there are a variety of problems associated with with the resultant distillate and hydrosol that you get, which we can get into. There are also cannabis derived terpenes, where you can take your original plant material and again, run it through a distillation process where you actually remove the terpenes or remove some of the terpenes prior to really extracting out the full range of cannabinoids, and so that's conducted at a lower temperature to be able to retain more terpenes and then you add it into your final product at the end. And then there are synthetic terpenes that you can synthesize these terpenes in a lab - however, that is not that's not really prevalent on the market per se, from what I've seen available on the market, there are cannabis derived terpenes, and then there are terpenes that are derived from plants and/or fruits.
Wayne: Yeah, I think what that article I referenced earlier said was around synthetic terpenes. It doesn't seem to be much really a thing in cannabis. But where it is used on some of these really fragile, certain scents or smells, you can't actually get it from the food product because it gets degraded or destroyed. So they synthetically have to produce it in the lab, it's the only way to actually create the extract or something that they could stabilize and use and like I guess, perfumes or something like that.
Emma: Yes. And it's important to note that you do not consume perfume, right? You just spray it on yourself and you smell it. And so that is - that's important to know that these synthetic terpenes are not necessarily meant for consumption and in the article that you're referencing in Cannabis Business Times, the author Kenneth Moreau, goes on to say that, well really like botanically derived or even cannabis derived terpenes are not necessarily fit for consumption either.
Wayne: With - before we go over to kind of the vaping and inhaling different terpenes and the different types, just around cannabis derived, I think, you know, right now again, back to kind of marketing and how we're labeling products. You know, it's - if it's an extract or something new you're inhaling, the general feel as well cannabis derived terpenes are much better than botanical terpenes derived from other products, even if you know - because they're made as isolates, but if you mix 20 of them into one solution, you potentially have 20 terpenes in that extract or whatever it might be. But again, the article said, you know, not all cannabis derived terpenes are created the same and in that processing, you're often not getting what you think you are, you know if you were to say this is Sour Diesel, cannabis derived terpenes, depending on how it's extracted, that may be not what you're getting. How much variability and I guess loss is there in different extraction methods? And we're just talking about cannabis derived terpenes. And you mentioned a couple methods that might be closest to the truest form at the end, you want to hit on some of those maybe?
Emma: Sure. So, in the article specifically for cannabis derived terpenes, the author defines three different extraction methodologies to get those terpenes and we we can do co2 extraction, which is fractionalized terpenes. We can do steam distillation, hydro distillation or a combination of steam-hydro distillation or we can do thin film distillation and in each of those formulation or extraction methodologies that I just mentioned, heat is required. And so when ever you put heat to terpenes, you will get degradation. There is no way around it. Terpenes are incredibly volatile. They will either burn off completely or they can also change in composition. There are also other compounds that are riding along with these terpenes. It's not just terpenes. So you also have aldehydes and esters, which are incredibly reactive compounds that can produce other potentially harmful byproducts when exposed to heat. You also may get phenols, which phenols are not intended to be heated and inhaled. And so it's important to note that it's not just terpenes that are in these resultant 100% quote unquote terpene extractions or distillations. Most of them on the market as the author points out are also hydrosol, which are a byproduct of distillation and again are not meant for heat - not meant to be heated and inhaled, particularly because they contain water. There are some water content in there because in the distillation process, this steam is cooled and condenses into the hydrosol. And so you are not only carrying phenols and byproducts of the aldehydes and esters and potentially damage terpenes, but you also may be carrying water into that distillate. And that is not something that is fit for inhalation and for, to be heated and inhaled. And I will say on the kind of botanically derived terpenes, then most of them are labeled as organic food grade terpenes. And so right there in the title, it's food grade, our digestive systems are built to be able to waste out products that are foreign to us. That's why the liver exists and it's very good at doing its job. But the lungs don't have that. And that is the problem that we ran into with the vape crisis, is that all of these foreign substances were going into the lungs at very high concentrations, and the lungs have no way of getting rid of them and so they end up coagulating in the tissues and then can prevent that the exchange of gases that occurs and, and prevent people from breathing. And that's a big problem.
Wayne: Yeah, I mean, huge problem around the vaping crisis and there's been deaths resulting from it and many, many more ill and from everything I've seen, you know, I haven't seen much in the last month or so but for a while there, there was new report stuff coming out. And it felt like they kind of narrowed it down to some of these cutting agents, vitamin E acetate, and then I also heard potentially, metals leaching in if they're not, you know, lead or something, depending on how the actual hardware is made. Have they done anything around looking at the terpenes on the science side, or know what might be good for us or what's bad for us? And a lot of states banned the flavored stuff, if it was botanical terpenes, and then they lifted to ban. But I haven't heard anything from like the CDC or people reporting on it around the terpene side of things, whether it's botanical or cannabis derived, I guess, and extracts and concentrates. Yeah.
Emma: I also haven't seen it from the CDC. The latest report that I read, which was in November, which I'm not sure if another one has come out, did claim vitamin E acetate is the most likely culprit in causing these lung failures that people are experiencing from vaping. But we did see in the regulatory legal landscape bans on flavorings and artificial flavors and terpenes being integrated. But then in Oregon, that ban was lifted. And so it's just a lot of confusion for a lot of people because there is not - the research doesn't exist in regards to consuming these terpenes in general, there's not any kind of scientific evidence that we can point to that says, consuming these terpenes in this high, this high concentration is okay for us, period. And specifically when we look at hydrosols and the byproducts of steam distillation and the way that these terpenes are being processed, distillation or a distillate with - it produces essential oil and then it produces a hydrosol. And essential oils are used as we know in diffusers, some people put them on their skin, highly concentrated oils, but then it also produces a hydrosol, which is often the way that these terpenes are sold as hydrosols, and hydrosols used to be thought of as just a byproduct of distillation that you throw away. And now they are being used as co-products. And so in my opinion, it is a lot of, trying to meet the consumer demand of an uneducated consumer market that thinks that the higher the terpene concentration, the better the experience or the more bang for your buck. And it is also trying to make a profit where it's, okay something that used to be thrown away, now we can actually sell for really high prices. I mean, in the article, the author cites a hydrosol, a terpene hydrosol product, that was being sold at like $10 a drop, because it's claiming these high concentrations of terpenes, and maybe it does have high concentrations of terpenes, but the oil cells that are in that hydrosol are severely damaged, they do not mimic the oil cells in the original plant material and so, you are consuming something that is degraded and that has changed chemically from that original plant source and it is not contributing to the therapeutic efficacy or, or the general medicinal value of that product at all. Yes, it may give it a taste, but the taste is not in line with the taste of the original plant material. The odor is not in line with the odor of the, the original plant material and the physiological therapeutic properties are definitely not in line with the way that the compounds are expressed in the original plant material.
Wayne: Yeah, that's really surprising to me. I you know, you see Cannabis derived and I understood, whether depending on how it's extracted, if it's distilled, I assume that the essential oil that kind of captures it, I think the main, the terpene that you're trying to get, but now there's this byproduct hydrosol, that sounds like it has potentially a lot of other compounds in it. And if you're looking at a product, and now these are both being sold into the market, you don't know which one of those is in the extract or if it's a vape pen, and if it's hydrosol, that one, I mean, both could be harmful, potentially, but the other one hydrosols - many other compounds potentially that are in there that you don't want to inhale.
Emma: Exactly. And it is also important to note that you don't necessarily want to consume essential oils either, but you don't want to heat and inhale an essential oil because that can again coagulate in the alveoli in the lungs and prevent the exchange of gases. You don't really want to eat essential oils either. I know that in the natural health movement, there was a wave of people consuming very homeopathic or very small, small doses of essential oils. But we don't really have the research to say that that is okay, at least in the digestive system, you have mechanisms in place to be able to waste out those foreign products, but in the lungs, you don't and so it's not something that we should be consuming in high concentrations, I mean, terpenes are found in very small concentrations in plants. The way that we have consumed them historically has been through our olfactory, or our smell, we have not been conducting this kind of thermal chemical degradation of terpenes and then creating such high concentrations and putting them into concentrates and extracts which are then meant to be heated and inhaled. The only piece of research that I have seen has come from Portland State University actually in 2017 that looked at synthetic terpenes, because they couldn't use cannabis derived terpenes for legal reasons, and they saw that when you did dab those terpenes, that they changed chemical formulation and became benzene, which is a highly carcinogenic compound. And so these are all of the risks at play when, when you do see reintegrated terpenes, or you see added terpenes, you see products that are distillate so they have a small range of cannabinoids, and then they add in botanical terpenes, or even cannabis derived terpenes. It doesn't make it healthier. And that is the main point, especially when we look at this kind of manipulative marketing or we just look at marketing in general. You really have to dissect that language and, and be aware of what the product is saying. Higher terpene tests do not equal healthier, more therapeutic products.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah, and I mean on the business side, I mean, from our perspective, or anyone making a vape or an extract, it's - you know, I don't think there's a lot of ill-intended people, there might be some, but you know, going off the best information they have. And that might be a lot of assumption. Well, it's cannabis derived, that's better. And just so much we don't know yet. And for some reason, the CDC doesn't seem to be talking about terpenes at all with the vaping crisis. So there's no education being overlaid that way. And it's just such a new frontier and that these products are rolling out and, you know, if someone says, "We're not gonna have any terpenes in our product", if you're making a vape pen, "at all" - well, you'll probably go out of business or if it's just an isolate or something like that. So there's this weird gray middle ground that we're trying to figure out of, how do we make a good product that consumers want, while also being safe, but being able to market it? And he's so many hard things to figure out at the same time.
Emma: Definitely. I mean, cannabis companies are just trying to survive, and trying to meet consumer demand which is ever evolving and consumers want terpenes. As the consumer market becomes more educated terpenes are a large part of this conversation. I love terpenes. I personally prefer to consume them in home plant medicine, in the flower, in a dry vaporization device because that's how I know that they are going to be the safest or the quote unquote best for my body. But there is a way to extract terpenes that do not create such harmful byproducts. And that is the cold solvent extraction method that I mentioned where you're not using any heat. And so that's something like an alcohol for example, using alcohol as a solvent, organic sugar cane alcohol, putting your plant material in there, you will extract a good amount of terpenes and cannabinoids as long as you keep it in a cool, dark, dry place. You'll also extract other beneficial plant compounds, and like phenols will be included in there, polyphenols especially. But that again is meant for ingestion. It's not meant to be heated and inhaled. And so I think that a large part of the, the safety conversation does specifically, like go along with the extract and concentrate area of the market of heating and inhaling these compounds at such high concentrations, and what is that going to do to our lungs? And you're absolutely right, that there isn't the research there to tell us specifically terpenes, whether they be cannabis derived or botanically derived or not healthy or not safe that just doesn't exist yet.
Wayne: Yeah. You know, if I was a listener, and this is the first time I'm hearing this, I would think, you know, and we're focusing on a lot of the safety here, there's a lot of benefits and pros conversation we could have, but I'd be hearing it sounds like well, inhaling terpenes just sounds risky, potentially. But how do you compare - so that listener would say, well, smoking is inhaling and vaporizing is inhaling, wouldn't smoking also be potentially dangerous? Or there could be some safety because concerns - how do you compare and contrast those two on the smoking side? And are there still some safety concerns to consider on the flower, dry vaporizing, even the flower side?
Emma: Definitely. So anytime that heat comes into play, there is a concern of safety or there should at least be a kind of discussion or thought process behind the safety. What I will say is that terpenes, we have consumed them historically by inhaling them, through our olfactory glands, there just hasn't been any heat involved in that. So that's the way that our body is used to consuming terpenes is by inhaling them. But now we're getting into the heat processing of that, with smoking, you are going to conduct not only a combustion reaction, but something called pyrolysis which will actually result in the loss of quite a bit of the compounds the instant that you light up that joint or flower. And so we also don't know what that loss looks like from a terpene standpoint - are all of those terpenes just being lost to pyrolysis? Because they're really volatile and they're being exposed to such high heat, that they all just immediately denature, we don't really know. That's why dry flower vaporization at least can allow us to conjecture that those terpenes are being trapped in that convection heating, that we can heat them at a low enough temperature to be able to allow them to volatilize but not denature or change their chemical structure. And that's where terpenes that are being derived from cannabis that are being extracted from these botanical plants or fruits, they are going through a high heat extraction process that is also carrying some other compounds with them that could potentially denature those terpenes or degrade them or make them change chemical structure entirely. And then we're heating them again at very high heat in dabs or even in oil vaporization to cause them to change structure or denature or degrade all over again, so it's kind of hitting it with heat both times. And so that's where it could cause a problem. And again, we are looking at such high concentrations, whereas when you smoke flower or vaporize flower, they are in the concentration that they are in, in the plant material, which is low, I mean, I'm talking like 0.1-0.2% per terpene if you're lucky, you may see a singular terpene go above a full 1%. But that's about it. Where as with concentrated terpenes, I mean, we're looking at like 30% terpenes, which that is really high. So, so we don't have enough research to say that consuming terpenes in such concentrated form is safe at all. Whereas consuming terpenes by smoking or by dry flower vaporization or even just by smelling them, by inhaling them in the air, there you're not consuming them in such a concentrated form, and you're not heating them once and then heating them all over again and inhaling. And so that's where I think it takes a closer look at the the safety of these concentrates and extracts because of that dual thermal degradation process and the increased concentration.
Wayne: Right. Yeah, I think you know, sometimes, I don't know if it's just culture, how he grew up, but you think if something's good for you, more is better. And it's obviously not true - alcohol, one drink might help you kind of relax and be social, but enough, you know, alcohol kills people from overconsuming. And that's where that dose is so critical and a lot we don't know. I mean, going from point 1% to 30% is like one shot versus 300 shots, you know, if we're talking about alcohol like that. Yeah, it's very scary and just a lot we don't know it's really hard to quantify or qualify.
Emma: Yeah, exactly, it does really interest me to kind of get into the philosophy of the, the reasons behind consumer choice and how the the consumptive culture that we especially have in America definitely informs that, the more is better more and more and more and more and - and how that plays out specifically when we look at health and wellness. And that's where different schools of thought have have popped up, such as homeopathy where it's like, "No, you actually consume a very, very little amount". And I'm not saying that homeopathy is the end all be all, but I am saying that it definitely we need to reframe our mindset in the way that we look at health and wellness where it's not you take a concentrated, isolated dose of a compound every single day to achieve a certain result. I mean, even in the, the opioid crisis that we're experiencing, most doctors do not suggest a tolerance break for these opioids, and they will just prescribe more and more and more, at least historically they've done so and it caused us an epidemic. Whereas I think that something really exciting to me about the potential of cannabis is that it helps people to reframe their mindset of just the ways that we've been stuck in for so long, of "Oh, if this compound is helping me, I should consume more of it and I should consume it every day. And should - I should have that consistency there." Where actually no, stepping away from it for a few days may be helpful not only to reset your tolerance, but to help your body reregulate and, and looking at the therapeutic doses is actually very, very low. You don't need that much to cause the physiological actions that will help and, and that's where the biphasic dose response comes in, as well. Where actually, more could be worse for you and, and I think that that's an important kind of like sociological, philosophical shift that needs to occur in our culture in a variety of different areas and cannabis helps to catalyze that, in my opinion.
Wayne: Yeah and from you know, initial legalization I think we see this changing now but it's still very strong looking at potency levels, you know, most stores or a lot of stores, if its top shelf or top quality that it has to have 28% THC or higher, like that baseline for qualities being set on how much percentage does it have, you know, and we see that changing in a lot of stores, but it still has a lot of momentum as far as just determining quality of a cannabis strain.
Emma: Absolutely. And that is so frustrating. I mean even just this morning I saw a certificate of analysis from a variety in Oklahoma that is reporting 36% THC and like people on Instagram are popping off and the grower's boasting about it and - and it's just like, oh god, I see that and first of all, I - I doubt the reliability of those results
Wayne: Yeah, the labs is a whole other conversation, a lot of them are getting shut down right now.
Emma: Mmm-hmm. Exactly, where it's like, the first thing I think is, oh, how much money did that result cost? But then also, just from like a standpoint of like, okay, even sure if it's - if it's real, if it's true, whatever that means. I do not want to consume a variety that is 36% THC, holy shit, excuse my language but like, not for me, that's not what's going to cause a therapeutic dose for me. And guess what, that's not what's going to cause a therapeutic dose for the majority of people and I'm not talking to people who have the need to inundate their body with cannabinoids for serious medical issues. I understand that that is real and I do not invalidate that portion of the consumer market. However, for quite a large portion of the consumer market or even potential consumers, they do not need that much THC and we don't know what the - what potency could cause from a negative health standpoint I mean, we know that CHS exists, the cannabis hyperemesis syndrome exists. We know that dysregulation of the CB1 receptors can cause cognitive distortion, that it can also increase the likelihood for psychotic episodes for people who are already genetically predisposed to psychosis and we know that it can cause a - just a variety of different health issues and an anxiety, even for myself personally. I've been on a one month tolerance break as I'm calling it and I, I stopped because I was traveling and then I got sick, but I'm really enjoying it because I'm finding that my anxiety is much more regulated now that I'm not smoking and I still use low dose tincture and I'll eat a low dose edible every now and then, and that's been great for like sleep and other body issues but as far as like re-regulating my CB1 receptors, I feel it. I feel it working and I feel it helping and and that's important to talk about.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah, I mean, personally, you know, for myself and just kind of experience you know, I think - I don't know who, it might even have been Bob Marley, he said "cannabis reveals you to yourself". And for me, if I'm in a really good headspace cannabis makes me extra creative, it's more fun. But if I'm in a state of pressure, stress, anxiety, very micro dose can help, but much more, it kind of amplifies those feelings I'm already having. And it can be more anxiety from consuming. So it's it's just not always this one thing and it affects you this way. It's constantly changing, which is just I think - consumer education again, we're so brand new in this legalized market where we can actually even talk about this, you know, this wasn't even close to a conversation when we're talking about black market. But yeah, it's fascinating the different ways cannabis is used and all the different things that can do, but how it has to be used so you know, responsibly in an educated way to get what you actually want to get out of it. Yeah. Terpenes and effects. So it'd be, I think, interesting to talk about, you know, we were saying individual terpenes, myrcene might be sedating or muscle relaxing for people. How much is that changing, maybe myrcene as an individual compound or terpenes in general, when you inhale it and let's assume you're getting the right dose you should be, when you inhale it versus when you might eat it in an edible or topically on the skin. Do the effects change really significantly? Verse from different consumption methods.
Emma: So, again, we need a lot more research to be able to have some kind of conclusive information around this, but there is a big question as to the bioavailability of terpenes - are terpenes actually causing any kind of physiological reaction, especially when you eat them, or they just being denatured and wasted out by the digestive system? There are certain terpenes that will have different effects on the actual consumption method. So for example, when you do eat a cannabis product that has been infused with terpenes, or maybe it is a whole plant extracts, so there are more terpenes that are retained throughout that cold solvent extraction. So something like an alcohol extraction, for example, linalool is a terpene that will actually influence the liver enzymes, thereby influencing the way that cannabis is processed through the liver, thereby influencing your experience. And so linalool is a particular terpene that we should look to when ingesting cannabis, because we know, we have the evidence that linalool interacts with liver enzymes. Apart from that, there are cannabinoid receptors in our gut, there are enzymes in our gut, and different factors that modulate the ECS. There are serotonin receptors in our gut, there is quite a big gut-brain connection that happens, and so terpenes could be acting on these receptors, these enzymatic factors, these neurotransmitters in our gut when we ingest cannabis, thereby influencing the experience. The reason why a lot of people think that terpenes are not bioavailable, or that they don't have any effects when we eat cannabis, is because they do not show up in blood plasma readings, and that's how we measure bioavailability, where there are certain timestamps after ingestion, where we take a blood plasma reading and we see the compounds that made it to the bloodstream. Terpenes don't really make it to the bloodstream. But that doesn't mean that they're not causing a plethora of effects in the gut itself during digestion and absorption. And so, my - my thought is that terpenes do have effects in, when we eat cannabis and that they may be similar to the effects that happened when we inhale cannabis. However, the terpenes are most likely not making it to the brain. So they're just acting on receptors in a different place in the body. And so it could it could be influenced that way. With topical absorption, the - the compound or the terpene that I specifically look out for is limonene because limonene has been shown to increase the porosity or permeability of skin as well as mucous membranes and so it can help other compounds to better absorb into the skin across mucous membranes, it can help other compounds better absorb into the bloodstream, and so limonene may actually be influencing the way that cannabis is taken up when it is applied topically or when you consume it via the mucous membrane. With terpenes that are applied topically, they also don't typically make it to the bloodstream but there are cannabinoid receptors, there are enzymatic factors that exists in the skin specifically to modulate inflammation and pain, and so terpenes absolutely may be having effects on those, those factors themselves in this skin. And so we, we can say at this point, again, with the very limited research that we have, that if you eat terpenes or if you apply them topically, they most likely don't make it to your brain. However, they are also most likely interacting with cannabinoid receptors as well as enzymatic factors in either your gut or your skin to cause an effect.
Wayne: Do you know how the linalool interacts with the enzymes when you ingest it?
Emma: Not specifically, from the research that I've read linalool can interact, I believe it's with the class of enzymes, the cytochrome, whereas CBD also interacts with these enzymes, and it can help to block certain processes or it can help to speed up or catalyze certain processes. Enzymes exist in our liver to help run reactions quicker. And so if you are blocking an enzyme from doing its job, then the reaction either won't run or it'll take a very long time for it to run. So you won't really feel the effects from it. If you are further supporting an enzyme than you are speeding up the reaction and so you could feel it a lot quicker. Cannabis typically is processed by the liver via first pass metabolism as soon as it hits our gut. There are a few ways in which products have been formulated to bypass that first pass metabolism specifically through nano-encapsulation, or nano-emulsification, which I believe we've talked about before, which is basically making those compounds more water soluble, so they don't have to go through the liver. And they are more easily taken up by the digestive system, but it is in a fat soluble package. So if you've done a butter or an oil extract extraction, basically, if you haven't encapsulated or emulsified your product, then it will go through this first pass metabolism and so the resultant compounds will change morphology because of the way that they've been processed through the liver. When linalool interacts with those enzymes, it could either prohibit some of those reactions from running or it could catalyze some of those reactions even further, and so it thereby will influence the experience that you have from it.
Wayne: Yeah, with sublingual consumption, where you know if the tincture's under the tongue or some edibles you can dissolve under your tongue. Do we know if terpenes show up in the blood plasma when they're consumed sublingually because they're not going through that first pass or metabolizing is that different, potentially?
Emma: I haven't seen particular research on that topic, but I would conjecture that the terpenes would absorb into the bloodstream and even be able to make it to the brain, especially if you have that limonene in there. Where the limonene will increase the porosity or the permeability of that mucous membrane and allow compounds to diffuse quicker through that membrane. Especially if - especially because there's no heat required there. Terpenes are very small compounds, they're fat soluble, they easily pass through membranes. And so they most likely are making it to, to the bloodstream and then making it to the brain to cause a reaction that would be similar then to inhaling the terpenes. Of course, you're not getting the thermal degradation from the inhalation module, but but you are, like, up taking them into the bloodstream in a similar way.
Wayne: Yeah, I wonder if eventually we'll have, we almost need, like a chart for those four consumption methods, you know, smoking, eating sublingual, or topical, and then which terpenes under each of those categories are the most ideal because maybe the metabolism makes this terpene irrelevant, either this could be there or not there. Maybe smoking from the fire makes this turn - you know, it's like which terpenes are best for which consumption method? But, you know, it sounds like we're starting to understand or they're doing some of that research, and you mentioned a few right there, but it's just so interesting.
Emma: Yeah, definitely need a lot more research to better elucidate the role of, of terpenes, and their therapeutic properties is related to human physiology and cannabis consumption specifically for sure.
Wayne: As we get close to the end, I wanted to, I think there's - there might be three or four questions in this one statement. So I'm going to try to work through it and word it the best way possible. But something I've been curious about, as we see so many strain names on the market. And now there is genetic testing. So we, you know, hopefully farms are actually growing the strain that they put on the label. But when we look at strains, and how similar they might actually be to each other, even though they have completely different names, or you might even call one a sativa and one an indica, when you look at terpenes most strains are, most strains are THC dominant. So if we're just talking about those strains, and you look at terpenes, how many are most commonly found in the cannabis strains? It seems like there's five to 10 that I frequently see. And if you've got a shelf with 100 different strain names, is there actually only like five different varieties that you're actually choosing from regardless of the name or whether it's called sativa, or indica? Because of that terpene profile being actually quite common amongst all those strains and it's THC dominant?
Emma: So that's a really good question. The strain name game is a big thing in cannabis. And with strain names, you have to understand that they are for marketing purposes, and so people can kind of like rebrand a variety with a different strain name, even though its chemical profile may be very, very similar to another varieties chemical profile, but they give it a different name, because they've made me introduce some new genetics in the breeding process that causes a slight differentiation, even if it's in the color and not the chemical profile and so that definitely happens. However, we also have a high level of diversity in cannabis and the canvas matrix is quite complex, we still don't have the full picture of compounds that are present in the matrix. And so even a slight adjustment in the profile can create a large impact for a different user. We also have to remember that each person is unique in the way that they will process cannabis, each person has a unique ECS, and each person responds to a terpene differently. So you may in fact get quite a different set of experiences even if the chemical profile to, to the eye and to the ability of our analytical testing instruments is quite similar to another variety with a different strain name. I will say that there is about - I talk about the top six terpenes that show up consistently and abundantly in cannabis. Myrcene, Limonene, Terpinolene, Pinene, B-Caryophyllene, and Linalool seem to show up in highest concentration, though there are strains or varieties that we're seeing now that have a high Ocimene concentration or have a high Nerolidol concentration or have a high Guaiol concentration. And so these more minor terpenes are definitely showing face more often in different varieties because of breeding efforts, which is exciting. There is an order in which the terpenes are produced in the plant material. So pinene and limonene come first. If you've ever had the pleasure of walking through a cannabis garden in early flower, most of the flowers will smell like citrus or pine, regardless of their variety because those are two terpenes that pop up first and then terpenes are differentiated after. That's also why it is becoming rarer to see the dried and the cured flowers on the shelves in dispensaries have a very high concentration of Pinene or Limonene. Most often they'll have a high concentration or dominant concentration of Myrcene or Terpinolene or B-Caryophyllene, with a variety of other terpenes in combination.
And so that - I don't think I did a great job of answering your question. But there, there is a like huge variety of strain names out there, the strains or the varieties may be very similar to each other in chemical profile. However, they may cause different effects because different humans will have different experiences with those, not only dependent on their own physiological processing, but also the various situational impacts that will be had on the experience such as how much water they had, how much food they ate, where they consumed, who they consumed with, their mental health state, their emotional health state. And, and so I I wouldn't place so much value in strain names in regards to predicting the effect I would look to the available analytical data, the cannabinoid potencies as well as the terpene potencies. I would conduct an investigation as to how that particular variety was grown. Because I also believe that that creates an impact on the experience and know that strain names in in like, their essence are marketing tools, they are used to make you go oh my god Mojito Slurpee number five? Yes, please. That sounds freakin delicious. Instead of the scientific naming of it, which would be like H1N5-XZ. That's not fun. And cannabis is still fun. There's still a lot of whimsy behind it. But if we're looking at trying to predict the range of therapeutic properties, look to the chemical composition. Yes, it may be very similar to a variety with a different name. However slight fluctuations will cause, may cause dramatic changes in different people.
Wayne: Yeah, then oh, that really helps answer that thought. You know, I was thinking there's 100 strains. There's these top six cannabi- or terpenes in there. So you've really got six, maybe 10 varieties. But that's coming back to where that dose is so important because minor changes, or one ratio being a little higher can have a significant impact potentially on some people or most people. So that's really good to know. I've been curious about that.
Emma: Definitely. I'll also add, before we move on from that topic, that analytical labs, they can't test for all of the terpenes in, in the matrix. And so even terpenes, that may not show up on the analytical testing report, or the certificate of analysis, I should say, may be having dramatic effects on the physiological processing, even if it's in like miniscule, minute concentration. So that's also something to be aware of, as well. It may look similar from the data that we have, but know that the data that we're exposed to is a very, very small piece of the actual overall puzzle.
Wayne: It's a great point yeah. One last question as we wrap up, we got this from a listener. And I think we've hit on most of this. But just wonder there's a piece here. I want to clarify or ask one one time again. So shout out to Eric, Eric says I'm a pharmacist at a medical marijuana dispensary in Connecticut. And he asked, I'm on a search for a deeper dive into terpenes to predict strain effects. I've read that greater than 0.5% myrcene predicts a heavily sedating indica strain. So there's two parts that I wanted to ask. You know, I think we're kind of hitting on the dose of the terpene. And it's really hard right now to say greater than 0.5% would be sedating. But also to his comment about it being an indica strain, or making that correlation to sedating. I saw this pop up again, someone said, well, sativa strains might actually be a connection to a specific terpene. So I just want to ask again, for me and listeners - still zero correlation to a sativa, and indica, producing some specific kind of terpene that might make it uplifting or sedating just based on that sativa or indica?
Emma: Hmm. So I've also seen that 0.5% myrcene come from like - come from particularly one source SC labs that has denoted that. When I did reach out to them to try to find the source of that, and I never got an answer, or they sent me a paper that actually did not have that language in there. And so, this is also necessitates the importance of like, check your sources, check your information. We used that, that general rule of thumb at the dispensary that I worked at for a while, Farma, for a long time to help determine the kind of like sedating potential of a particular terpene, in that case, myrcene. However, that was not 100% expressed anecdotally in the population, I mean we would have cultivars and varieties come in that had over 1% of myrcene and actually create very stimulative effects for people. And so it's, it's important to understand that while these sources are reporting on this kind of data like, take it with a grain of salt, it is a general like rule of thumb that you could potentially use but it is not like really rigorously proven by science just yet in that example.
And as far as like the indica and sativa distinction, I I think that really where the damage comes in and using indica sativa to predict effect is by again looking on the internet and seeing like, Oh okay, this breeder, this grower, classified this variety as an indica, and you know, every single person who consumes this will experience sedation. And that's where like that is not good, if you look at the chemical profile or the chemotype of variety that maybe it was classified as an indica. And that variety does have a dominance of myrcene and it also has linalool and it also has B-caryophyllene, and it has some humulene even maybe, then I would predict that it would cause a sedative reaction in somebody. But again, know that that is a prediction, that is not an absolute, that is not consistent. Somebody may consume that one evening and find like great efficacy in regards to helping them with insomnia, but then a week later may not find that same efficacy. And so that's important to know again, important to understand that every single person is unique. That chemical profile may produce great efficacy in one patient or consumer but may keep another consumer really awake and alert at night. There are the again, that's the puzzle analogy that I use. There are these associated properties with these isolated terpenes that created the corner of the puzzle, but that middle piece is just missing because the research that we do have has been conducted on animals. And it has been in such high concentrations, that if we just looked at the research, we would then look at a chemotype of a variety that had terpinolene as the dominant concentration and say, Oh, damn, this is going to make you fall asleep, where really it would keep people up all night. And so that, that is an important thing to think about when we look at predicting effect, and maybe at some point in time, or even as we continue on, a grower or a breeder will classify as a variety as an indica because of the way in which it grows. And also the way in which it makes that person and maybe a few people in their community feel, but that cannot be generalized to the larger population of billions of people. We need to look at the chemical composition that comes from every single batch because also environmental factors will influence the concentration of the specific terpenes. It may not influence what terpenes are expressed dominantly because that's in a genetic code, but it may influence the concentration of not only the terpenes, but also the cannabinoids, which will thereby influence the experience. And so as far as industry professionals, people working in the industry, especially people on the dispensary side of things and making recommendations to consumers, I'm not saying to abolish indica/sativa. It is a vernacular that we have become accustomed to, it's a - it's a coded language that the industry has adopted to mean different things than the original definition and that's okay, language changes. However, we cannot use that definition to predict consistent experience for people we have to look at the chemotype of every single batch because environmental factors are at play and because different people will respond differently.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah. Awesome Emma, thanks again for coming on I - this was a really fun one. Yeah terpenes are so interesting to me and they're evolving we're learning more and you know products and different - all the things, I really appreciate the time. Is there anything you want to let listeners know about and then tell them where they can find you if they want to follow you or or learn more reach out or whatever it might be?
Emma: Sure. Thanks so much Wayne. My pleasure coming on, terpenes are, are always my favorite topic. I never get tired of discussing them. They're so fascinating to me. Um, you can find me on Instagram you can find me on the ole internet. My company is called eminent consulting. So you can find us at eminentconsultingfirm.com. You can also find us at @eminentconsulting on line or you can find me personally @echasen on Instagram. And hopefully soon, in the next quarter, we will be publishing some more in depth online courses where there is video of me speaking on not only terpenes, but also cannabinoids and a variety of other scientific information. So definitely stay tuned for that.
Wayne: Yeah. And any business listeners, Emma and I are going to be on a panel at the cannabis conference in Vegas. It's the end of April, April 20th, 21st, to the 23rd I think around there. So it'd be a lot of fun. We're going to talk about education and training internally inside the business and the science of cannabis and what it means for retail stores. So if you're heading out to that conference, come check us out. We'd love to meet any listeners that are there. So that'll be fun. I'm excited for that, too.
Emma: Yes, me too.
Wayne: Alright. Thanks, Emma.
Emma: Yep. Thanks, Wayne.
